Question
As Announced in October:
October 14, 2005 | 05:49PM PST/PT
Hi, this is Rob Chesnut, head of eBay's global Trust & Safety organization. Completing a transaction with a safe, convenient payment method is an important part of trading on eBay. Buyers have a wide variety of choices about how to pay eBay sellers, and while most of the payment methods offered by eBay sellers offer a high degree of safety and convenience, a few simply are not appropriate for the eBay marketplace.
Based on safety concerns and input from the Community, we feel it's time to establish a Safe Payments Policy that clarifies eBay's position on payment methods. This policy will be enforced beginning January 15, 2006 and will not affect any commonly used payment method on eBay today.
Permitted on eBay.com: Sellers may offer to accept PayPal, credit cards including Mastercard/Visa /Amex/Discover, debit cards and bank electronic payments online for eBay purchases. Sellers may also offer to accept ban- to-bank transfers, often known as bank wire transfers or bank cash transfers, and the online money order service Bidpay. Sellers may accept COD (cash on delivery) or cash for in person transactions. Sellers may offer to accept personal checks, money orders (including Bidpay), cashier’s checks, certified checks and other negotiable instruments.
Not permitted on eBay.com: Sellers may not solicit buyers to mail cash. Sellers may not ask buyers to send cash through instant cash transfer services (non-bank, point-to-point cash transfers) such as Western Union or Moneygram. Finally, sellers may not request payment through online payment services not listed in this policy.
Currently on the announcement board this is summed up as:
This policy will be enforced beginning January 15, 2006 and will not affect any commonly used payment method on eBay today.
The current policy page says:
Safe Payments Policy
eBay wants to ensure that the marketplace offers an array of safe and convenient payment choices for its buyers. As described in our safe buying guide, eBay strongly encourages sellers to offer payments through PayPal – PayPal is not only convenient to use, but it also offers buyers and sellers industry leading protection against fraud, chargebacks and theft of financial data. Merchants with their own merchant credit card processing account, and those who use a third-party processor, may also offer their buyers the option of paying directly with a credit card online (including through third party checkout) or by phone.
From time to time, as new payment services arise, eBay will evaluate them to determine whether they may present trust and safety concerns and are appropriate for the marketplace. eBay will consider the following factors, among others, in making its determination:
Whether the payment model offers substantial financial, privacy and anti-fraud protection for buyers and sellers
Whether the payment model raises the potential for confusion among eBay users, or involves incentives that may present fraud concerns
Whether the payment model involves precious metals, or other non-cash (points, miles, minutes, coupons, discounts) as consideration
Whether the payment service has a substantial historical track record of providing safe and reliable financial and/or banking related services (new services without such a track record generally cannot be promoted on eBay)
The identity, background and other business interests of the payment service sponsor
The license/regulatory status of the payment provider in the countries where it provides payment services
Offline payment methods generally do not offer the same level of protection or convenience as online payments. Nonetheless, they may be appropriate for certain types of transactions, and sellers may use listings to offer acceptance of most valid financial instruments, including personal checks, cashier’s checks, and money orders including BidPay, or COD.
Policy
Permitted on eBay.com: Sellers may offer to accept PayPal, credit cards including Mastercard/Visa /Amex/Discover, debit cards and bank electronic payments online for eBay purchases. Sellers may also offer to accept bank-to-bank transfers, often known as bank wire transfers or bank cash transfers, and the online money order service BidPay. Sellers may accept COD (cash on delivery) or cash for in person transactions. Sellers may offer to accept payment through Certapay and Propay. Sellers may offer to accept personal checks, money orders (including BidPay), cashier’s checks, certified checks and other negotiable instruments.
Not permitted on eBay.com: Sellers may not solicit buyers to mail cash. Sellers may not ask buyers to send cash through instant cash transfer services (non-bank, point-to-point cash transfers) such as Western Union or Moneygram. Sellers may not ask buyers to pay with Stormpay. Finally, sellers may not request payment through online payment methods not specifically permitted in this policy.
Violations of this policy may result in a range of actions including:
Listing cancellation
Forfeit of eBay fees on cancelled listings
Listing cancellation
Limits on account privileges
Loss of PowerSeller status
Account suspension
This policy does not affect any payment method commonly offered on eBay today. However, there are some sellers who have listings offering to accept cash and Western Union instant cash transfer, and a few who offer other payment methods that are not permitted under this policy. To avoid disruption of these sellers’ business during the holiday shopping season, eBay will delay enforcement of this policy against existing payment methods until Jan 15, 2006. This policy will be localized for other eBay sites in the coming months.
Some Examples
Under the above criteria, eBay does not permit sellers to solicit payment for eBay items through Greenzap.com, Stormpay or e-gold payments. Sellers may not solicit payment through “topping off” of a seller’s pre-paid credit or debit card.
Why does eBay have this policy?
Safety and convenience are at the core of eBay’s policies toward payments. This policy is designed to promote safe online shopping, and to encourage online payment methods that are safe, easy to use, reliable, and offer high levels of protection for users. The policy also attempts to preserve some flexibility for users that still prefer offline payment methods.
I question whether PayPal fits this criteria, but the criteria is used purely at Ebay's discretion, so there is no relevance to my perception:
Whether the payment service has a substantial historical track record of providing safe and reliable financial and/or banking related services (new services without such a track record generally cannot be promoted on eBay)
Answer
The implications of this policy only really hit home yesterday when I discovered that BidPay had announced:
Effective December 31, 2005, BidPay.com, Inc. will be discontinuing operations. As a result, BidPay will no longer offer payment services to the online auction industry. We regret any inconvenience to our users and thank them for their loyal patronage. Customer service will remain available at bidpayservice*bidpay.com through the month of February.
Answer
I think that current market forces have created an "expectation" from most buyers for an online payment option. For that reason, and although I realise that not everyone has a credit card, I have offered BidPay as a payment option since I was first aware of it. I am aware that not taking PayPal will have deterred some buyers, but that decision has been based on the fact that (a) I had a reasonable range of payment options (check, money order, cash, direct credit card payment, BidPay) and (b) I have refused to deal with PayPal on principle over the fact that they would not return funds to MY buyers when I was not allowed to join. In the next three weeks two of my payment options are removed, and Ebay policy now dictates that the only online payment option that any "independent" business using their site is allowed to offer is PayPal - a business that is equally monopolistic to Ebay in it's own area of use, and (now) a subsidiary of Ebay itself.
My personal feelings over this situation, particularly now, but even since Ebay took over PayPal, is that this is a serious anti-trust issue. I am not happy with how this has developed, nor the loss of control I have over my small business.
In the meantime, I feel that I have finally been coerced into using PayPal. I have just joined and tonight, for the first time, will include PayPal as a payment option in the auctions I list. Amusingly, PayPal alleges that they have sent me a letter to verify the account (accross Christmas and all), and I have restrictions on the amount that I can withdraw but it appears that there are no restrictions on how much can be paid into the account.
I feel like total spineless scum for not standing by my principles, and allowing Ebay to double the fees on some auctions through disssallowing me to use a wider range of paymentr options. Ebay can call this buyer protection, but the only benefits i can see are to Ebay. After seven years I can no longer be trusted deliver if I accept "my" payment options or any online payment service that is not owned by Ebay, and coincidentally, through a change of policy to protect users, Ebay will increase the fees that they collect. I STILL BELIEVE THAT THIS IS AN ANTI-TRUST ISSUE.
Kevin
Answer
Speaking for myself, I'll miss the bidpay options. Particularly for those that used it. It was fine for my needs. As for P.P. for internationals, I can't say I have as much faith in them. But may in the future..
Is the room that small that we're starting to bump into each other in the corners?
Ebay the whale...
Answer
It is so NOT the day to be sitting here making any long posts (or even thinking about eBay & PayPal) but I do want to say.....not being at all factitious..that I feel your pain Kevin.
I am hardly a seller anymore,thanks(?) to PayPal
but am actually pretty thankful that PayPal "kicked me out"....thereby saving me the decision you had to make.
It may be a good time to let other sellers know that the last couple of sales I did make weren't 'buyer protected' by PP.
It CAN be done.....of course I don't know how many bids I didn't get because the big sale was done with a BIN.
One was over $1000 via a virtually "indisputable" Postal MO and an international one via BidPay.(so I mourn their passing)
But uphill battles just aren't fun....
Answer
Kevin
PP is an evil double edged sword
we have been using it for preferred customers for about a year and a bit now.
a few months ago I made a large purchase off ebay and decided to pay with paypal just for the little bit of security it gave me on the site, I am sure it was purely all in my head but it made me realize, if I needed that security for this 1,000.00 plus transaction, then my customers need that sense of security too, even if it is only 10.00 it is still THEIR 10.00.
So now we offer Paypal, <hanging head in shame> as it is needed to make people feel more comfortable in this day of all the Indonsian scams, hijacked accounts, ripoff sellers, etc......
it is a sad day that we are more trusting of a corporation than our fellow humans, but we have to go with the flow.
Paypal is good for the customers, so we do it, we really don't trust PP and have zero loyalty to them, but business is business.
Answer
You actually feel more secure using PayPal to pay for a high value item?????????????????????????????????????????????? ??
Okay money orders have no security, but I would feel far safer using credit card (which CAN be charged back with sensible methodology) or even a cheque (which can be "evidence" in a fraud) .... I have no confidence at all in PayPal protection (I am not satisfied that they offer clients any protection at all). I realise that my principles are business foolishness (and I feel like crap for actually using PayPal today), and that as far as business goes I probably should have used it from the moment they allowed Australian users. However, what I have seen of buyer or seller protection looks to be totally laughable and designed only to protect the assets of Ebay and PayPal.
Kevin
Answer
Originally Posted by gabs-a-lot
Kevin
PP is an evil double edged sword
So now we offer Paypal, <hanging head in shame> as it is needed to make people feel more comfortable in this day of all the Indonsian scams, hijacked accounts, ripoff sellers, etc......
it is a sad day that we are more trusting of a corporation than our fellow humans, but we have to go with the flow.
Paypal is good for the customers, so we do it, we really don't trust PP and have zero loyalty to them, but business is business.
Well said, (unfortunately) I agree.
Answer
kevin, is a merchant account something that is doable for you (know nothing of what is available at what price in australia). you could then not use paypal if you feel that it would be safer.
also, you can still mention whatever the hay you want to in your eoa emails if you don't use ebays email service. I still put in mine that I accept cash. ebay has stated on many of the threads on the ebay boards that that is acceptable since they can't and have no intention to try to monitor our private emails (but using THEIR emailing/invoicing service to mention cash is a no no).
Answer
Kevin
The actuality is the buyer is better protected (fairly or not) with PayPal and the seller is better protected by NOT using it.
An impasse, to be sure.
Ay least with 'your own' CC merchant account, you can hope for a chance to fairly present your side in a dispute.....not something a great many sellers have found to be the case with PP.
Depending on the average amount of your individual sales.......can you absorb the loss of one(hopefully, only one, with PP)? and would that cover the cost of a more expensive merchant account of your own?