Question
PayPal Loophole Leaves Man Holding Empty Bag
Published at Channelcincinnati.com.
at 4:52 p.m. EST December 30, 2003
Is this an accurate description of a major flaw in PayPal's Protection policy, or media overstatement?
Kevin
Answer
I'm certain Mr JF will be along shortly to explain it all to you, Kevin.
Here's a recent thread of mine where I questioned the PP service.
http://community.here.com/3/OpenTopic?a=tpc&s=386293084&f=200299906&m=81629748 47&r=6172974847#6172974847
Answer
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Felkner said when he received the empty envelope, he figured PayPal would cover him. But he said PayPal was no pal when he filed the complaint.
"When I contacted them, they have a form you fill out and the second line on the form says, 'Did you receive anything? Click 'yes' even if it was empty,'" he said. "But this automatically disqualifies you from the protection program as it is now a dispute-of-goods issue and not a non-receipt issue."
PayPal sent him an e-mail explaining, "PayPal's Buyer Complaint Policy only applies to shipment of goods, not to disputes about the attributes or quality of goods received."
"It's an automatic disqualification from protection if you receive anything," Felkner said. "Even if it's an empty envelope, they don't want to talk about it. So, really you're left to deal with the seller." <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Karen
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Toy stove collector extraordinaire...
"By the old wood stove where our hats were hung,
Our words were told, our songs were sung..." ~ Bob Dylan
Answer
This report lends credibility to the claims of some that ebay and Paypal customer service departments are actually run by trained monkeys.
Sometimes, the lack of brains and common sense in both operations is inexplicable...and inexcusable.
Larry
Answer
Mr John Ford says in the thread that Neil linked to:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>When the process becomes this complicated and risk laden for you I recommend you use Money Orders. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
At least that removes any perception of protection against the risks of doing an online transaction, because a money order has almost no protection. How much protection does PayPal really offer anyone beyond PayPal?
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Sometimes, the lack of brains and common sense in both operations is inexplicable...and inexcusable.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
In this particular type of case, PayPal is not out of pocket and has made ongoing money by offering a service that is perceived by many users to offer them legitimate protection - so it is "explicable", but it certainly appears to be inexcusable. This protection system has been developing and promoted as a safety mechanism for a couple of years now, but it appears to only protect PayPal themselves from loss.
Kevin
Answer
This issue has been brought up on the PayPal boards many times and it isn't a media overstatement. I guess one needs to lie and click "NO" even if you received an empty box or envelope in order to be elgible for any protection.
Blanche
Answer
Amazing.
Answer
Just to play devil's advocate here...
How does paypal...or the police for that matter, KNOW a package or envelope was empty when it was recieved? Very few people open packages in front of impartial witnesses. Sellers aren't the only scammers in the world. Just think of how many sellers would be scammed if paypal took the word of the buyer that the package was empty upon arrival.
Answer
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Sellers aren't the only scammers in the world. Just think of how many sellers would be scammed if paypal took the word of the buyer that the package was empty upon arrival. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Good point but it won't matter in this thread anyway.
Answer
This is a valid point, but PayPal is offering alleged user protection (both to buyers, and to sellers who jump through the relevant hoops). They need to be able to make that protection work if it is to have any meaning. IF a person receives an empty package (whether tampered with, or sent empty with delivery confirmation) they have a right to expect the buyer protection to have some essence if it is why they have chosen that payment method on a high value item. If it means person to person delivery and opening your package at the Post Office is the only way to control the situation, then let buyers know that these hoops must be jumped through (just as delivery confirmation to confirmed addresses is required for sellers - and even protection through that system is being knocked back at times).
Yes, there is fraud on both sides of the transaction (ie: some buyers and some sellers). But if user protection is to work, then it has to be offered in a workable way. As it is, PayPal is reaping money from users who *believe* that they are protected when they are not. This is almost a fraudulent method of selling a product.
If PayPal can not make buyer or seller protection work, they should not be offering it - but knocking back buyer protection when an empty package or envelope *MAY* have been received is not sufficient in itself.
How I see it, Kevin