Question
Hi,
I was hoping to get some help concerning a dispute I'm having with Von Dutch over the sale of their jeans (authentic, non-derivative). After an initial (legitimate) complaint over the use of their web images, Von Dutch is demanding proprietary information in the form of receipts for ALL future listings. They refuse to justifiy any relationship between the photos, which where duly removed, and the receipts; and they are not willing to clairify their position on the issue of receipts generally. The last message I received from them stated that they were "looking forward" to removing my future listings. Notwithstanding their complete lack of professionalism, I feel that VD is using VERO to support a price maintenance regime, which is a violation of the Sherman Act. I don't understand why ebay would allow this since that itself could expose ebay to liability. My understanding is that VD has been known to abuse VERO in the past. Please note the exchange I'm having with them below--most recent e-mail first. I would appreciate any help or suggestions as I intend to fight this with whatever means at my disposal.
> From: "VonDutch" <trademarkinspector*vondutch.com>
> Date: 2004/12/15 Wed PM 11:55:49 EST
> To: <euroamericantrade*cox.net>
> CC: "fraud" <fraud*vondutch.com>
> Subject: Re: Re:VeRO VDO EUROAMERICANTRADE
>
> Looking forward to sending another VeRO notice as soon as you re-list.
>
> Do not bother to email us back unless you have receipts attached.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <euroamericantrade*cox.net>
> To: "VonDutch" <trademarkinspector*vondutch.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2004 12:58 AM
> Subject: Re: Re:VeRO VDO EUROAMERICANTRADE
>
>
> > Sir,
> >
> > I explained in detail why I have not sent you a receipt. I'm trying to
> get justification for your unusual demand for receipts. I have removed your
> copyrighted photos from my listings in accordance with the law. At this
> point I do not see the relationship between the photos and the receipts and
> on what legal basis you are asking for proprietary information. Are you
> actually threatening to interfere with any future listing so long as I do
> not provide you with receipts for every article I purchase with the intent
> to resell? Or are you demanding receipts in this particular case, on an
> informal basis, in order to establish my legitimacy and avoid future
> interrogations? Please clarify your position.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > > From: "VonDutch" <trademarkinspector*vondutch.com>
> > > Date: 2004/12/15 Wed AM 02:12:26 EST
> > > To: <euroamericantrade*cox.net>
> > > CC: "fraud" <fraud*vondutch.com>
> > > Subject: Re: Re:VeRO VDO EUROAMERICANTRADE
> > >
> > > Hello,
> > >
> > > On December 12 I requested receipts, which you have not sent yet. This
> > > matter could have been resolved on the same day, if you had sent us the
> > > receipts.
> > >
> > > When sending, please use a PDF file so we can have the store
> authenticate
> > > it.
> > >
> > > We receive literally 100 emails a day... so no need to spam us when
> > > corresponding with eBay.
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > >
> > > Richard
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: <euroamericantrade*cox.net>
> > > To: "VonDutch" <trademarkinspector*vondutch.com>
> > > Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2004 6:39 PM
> > > Subject: Re: Re:VeRO VDO EUROAMERICANTRADE
> > >
> > >
> > > > Hello,
> > > >
> > > > I haven't heard from you since I responded to the inquiry below. I am
> > > anxious to resolve this issue in an amicable and reasonable manner
> without
> > > the need for third party intervention. Please respond at your earliest
> > > convenience so that we may put this issue to rest.
> > > >
> > > > Sincerely,
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > From: "VonDutch" <trademarkinspector*vondutch.com>
> > > > > Date: 2004/12/08 Wed PM 09:29:25 EST
> > > > > To: <euroamericantrade*cox.net>
> > > > > CC: "fraud" <fraud*vondutch.com>
> > > > > Subject: Re: Re:VeRO VDO EUROAMERICANTRADE
> > > > >
> > > > > Hello,
> > > > >
> > > > > The reason we removed your auctions was due to copyrighted photos.
> > > > >
> > > > > I would appreciate seeing receipts.
> > > > >
> > > > > > > > 3944575598 NWT! Authentic $150 VON DUTCH SLIDDER Jeans 31 x 32
> > > > > > > > 3944575618 NWT! Authentic $150 VON DUTCH SLIDDER Jeans 33 x 34
> > > > > > > > 3944575634 NWT! Authentic $150 VON DUTCH ENGINEER Jeans 32 x
> 34
> > > > >
> > > > > Regards,
> > > > >
> > > > > Richard
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: <euroamericantrade*cox.net>
> > > > > To: "VonDutch" <trademarkinspector*vondutch.com>
> > > > > Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 12:49 AM
> > > > > Subject: Re: Re:VeRO VDO
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > Hi,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thank you for your prompt response.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Ok, you're absolutely right. I'll remove your pictures from my
> > > listings.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > It is not necessary for me to invest additional time and effort on
> > > this
> > > > > issue since no one has ever once questioned the authenticity of the
> > > jeans or
> > > > > any other product I have ever sold on ebay or elsewhere. Any
> products
> > > that
> > > > > I sell under my name will be authentic and purchased from a
> reputable
> > > > > source. I have a right to sell them.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > However, I can appreciate and respect your position. If it would
> be
> > > > > helpful, I am willing to provide you with receipts and/or
> transaction
> > > > > information, in good faith, for the auctions in question; but it
> should
> > > not
> > > > > establish a precedent of any kind. If you're going to make me
> provide
> > > you
> > > > > with receipts each time I put a VD product up for auction under the
> > > threat
> > > > > of removal, it's going to create a completely unlawful, untenable
> and
> > > > > discriminatory situation. > > > > > >
> > > > > > I will not use your copyrighted materials again. I would
> appreciate
> > > it if
> > > > > you could make note of my response so that this situation will not
> arise
> > > in
> > > > > the future.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > From: "VonDutch" <trademarkinspector*vondutch.com>
> > > > > > > Date: 2004/12/07 Tue AM 02:43:01 EST
> > > > > > > To: <euroamericantrade*cox.net>
> > > > > > > CC: "fraud" <fraud*vondutch.com>
> > > > > > > Subject: Re:VeRO VDO
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Hello,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > You were using our copyrighted photos.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Please forward us the receipts for verification.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Regards,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Richard
> > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > > From: <euroamericantrade*cox.net>
> > > > > > > To: <trademarkinspector*vondutch.com>
> > > > > > > Sent: Sunday, December 05, 2004 11:13 AM
> > > > > > > Subject: VERO--euroamericantrade
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Dear Sir/Madam:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > The followed items were recently removed by E-bay through the
> VERO
> > > > > > > program:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > 3944575598 NWT! Authentic $150 VON DUTCH SLIDDER Jeans 31 x 32
> > > > > > > > 3944575618 NWT! Authentic $150 VON DUTCH SLIDDER Jeans 33 x 34
> > > > > > > > 3944575634 NWT! Authentic $150 VON DUTCH ENGINEER Jeans 32 x
> 34
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > All the products I list are 100% authentic. They are not
> copies,
> > > > > > > reproductions, or replicas of any kind. Copyright laws are not
> > > violated
> > > > > > > when the product in question is personally owned, legally
> purchased,
> > > > > > > accurately described and represented; and unadulterated in any
> way,
> > > > > shape,
> > > > > > > or form. I have the legal right to sell these jeans and I have
> not
> > > > > violated
> > > > > > > my the law or my agreement with E-bay in listing them. Can you
> > > please
> > > > > > > explain why you had my listings removed? I appreciate your
> concern
> > > and
> > > > > I
> > > > > > > would like to work with you in order to relist them as soon as
> > > possible
> > > > > and
> > > > > > > avoid any problems in the future. If the issue is the pictuers
> I
> > > used
> > > > > off
> > > > > > > the VD site, I will not include them when relisting. I wasn't
> aware
> > > > > that VD
> > > > > > > was against the use of its images when the product itself was
> > > > > legitimate.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Thank you very much.
Answer
Hi Fassi,
My interpretation of what is happening (based on the latter emails) is not that they are trying to "fix" prices, but that they are trying to establish that the jeans being sold are legitimate and not knock offs (the original reason for VeRO), and possibly checking that they are not stolen. If you have receipts, I would just supply them, if not, I would explain why not / the source where you got the jeans.
I may be reading it wrongly though.
Kind Regards, Kevin
Answer
Hi Fassi,
Welcome to here.
My understanding is the the original reason for VeRO was the use of their pictures and I would understand if they wanted receipts for those items only. I don't understand why they want receipts for all future VD items you might have nor would I agree to supply them.
Just my 2c worth.
Answer
I'd have to agree with Kevin_T's suggestion. If you have receipts, send them (although demanding them in a .pdf format is preposturous).
If you don't have them, or if you simply want to dig in your heels, ignore the demand and continue to list as usual... and see what happens.
It's not like you can really afford to sue them, and the beauty of VeRO (from their point of view) is that they don't need to go to any expense to shut you down.
Life isn't fair. That's why it makes sense to send them copies of the receipts if you've got them.
Answer
vero help:
http://tabberone.com/Trademarks/trademarks.html
Answer
VD has to have a "good faith belief" in order to shut you down. Now it sounds like that want you to provide proof that their good faith belief is valid or not.
I usually make the VeRO member prove their good faith belief. They shut down my auctions they must have had enough reason to do so.
Answer
First, using pictures either culled from or linked directly linked to their web site is a big no-no.
Secondly, I would never provide my source for products I sell. I have invested considerable time in locating and creating relationships with my suppliers and I am the only one with a right to benefit from my hard work.
If you want to sell them then dig in and fight. Save the emails to send to ebay to report VERO use violations. Use the tabberone link info, they have a lot of experience to share on the subject.
Good Luck!
Mike.
Answer
VeRO Commandment IV
IV. Do Not Contact eBay. eBay doesn't really care about you or your problem. eBay considers you a pest and will treat you as such.
File a counternotice against Von Dutch. If they don't respond in 14 days the mark gets removed from your record. That's what counts. eBay keeps score.
Answer
I wouldn't be trying to fight Von Dutch the head designer their is Nuts. He has in the past stopped in the middle of D/T LA after seeing some of his hats in a streetside stall. He got out starting screaming at the proprietor and started grabbing the hats into his car and drove off.
Sure you might have the law on your side but the hassle of fighting it with a company like that is not worth it IMHO
Answer
Hey, I fought Disney. The only way to stop abusive behavior is for someone to take a stand.
Federal Law is on your side. A street vendor and a federal lawsuit are two different animals to fight.