Question
Some of us see churning as a sport; others like myself consider it more of an art. For this reason I would like to perfect my art. What does it mean when we say that you can apply for a Bank of America or Chase card every 30 days?
30 days after you apply?
30 days after something happens in the inner workings of the bank?
30 days after you receive and activate the card?
30 days since your last application for any card or 30 days since you applied with a different department e.g. Bank of America business vs. personal?
I welcome the input here.
Cheers ^
Answer
I will point out that more than one inquiry every 60 days is a reason for decline. Not that it will happen in every case but it is listed as a default decline in the computer software. Some variances will make this ignored. YMMV.
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I will point out that more than one inquiry every 60 days is a reason for decline. Not that it will happen in every case but it is listed as a default decline in the computer software. Some variances will make this ignored. YMMV.
With every bank?
Also what are these "variances" of which you speak?
Thanks.
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read the threads on this forum... there is a LOT of information to take in.
YMMV = your mileage may vary
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read the threads on this forum... there is a LOT of information to take in.
I have read them all. My question is not answered in any of them. Why would you respond to my post telling me to read stuff when you do not know that it exists?
YMMV = your mileage may vary
Can you explain why you provided the definition of YMMV? Your post is utterly confusing :confused:
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Some of us see churning as a sport; others like myself consider it more of an art. For this reason I would like to perfect my art. What does it mean when we say that you can apply for a Bank of America or Chase card every 30 days?
30 days after you apply?
30 days after something happens in the inner workings of the bank?
30 days after you receive and activate the card?
30 days since your last application for any card or 30 days since you applied with a different department e.g. Bank of America business vs. personal?
I welcome the input here.
Cheers ^
30 days after approval.
Answer
What does it mean when we say that you can apply for a Bank of America or Chase card every 30 days?
there is plenty of discussion of churning chase credit cards... pretty sure bank of america as well.
there is only 1 post on chase business cards specifically, but i fail to see how you can claim that there is nothing about churning..
just recently there have been a number of posts explaining which cards people get how often... i really dont understand how you are not seeing this stuff on the forums..
search for churn and you will get an inordinate amount of hits.
also, different people do different things. there are not standards. that is what YMMV means. everyone has a system that they have made work for them. you can learn what they do, and then experiment and find what works for YOU.
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30 days after approval.
Thanks.
So, if you are approved on say the 1st, but don't activate your card until the 20th, can you then apply on the 1st of the next month even though only 10 days have elapsed since you activated the card?
Thanks agains.
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Thanks.
So, if you are approved on say the 1st, but don't activate your card until the 20th, can you then apply on the 1st of the next month even though only 10 days have elapsed since you activated the card?
Thanks agains.
That's how I do it!
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Thanks.
So, if you are approved on say the 1st, but don't activate your card until the 20th, can you then apply on the 1st of the next month even though only 10 days have elapsed since you activated the card?
Thanks agains.
I recommend 60 days after activation but at a minimum of 30 days after activation of card. IMHO
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there is plenty of discussion of churning chase credit cards... pretty sure bank of america as well.
there is only 1 post on chase business cards specifically, but i fail to see how you can claim that there is nothing about churning..
just recently there have been a number of posts explaining which cards people get how often... i really dont understand how you are not seeing this stuff on the forums..
search for churn and you will get an inordinate amount of hits.
If you would take the time to read the question you would see that I am not asking any of the things that you are stating here. I am not asking how often people get cards. I have read all of the threads you are referring to. Instead of repeatedly stating that I should stop posting in this thread and "do a search" why don't you tell me where the answers to my question are then.
I am asking a very specific question about how the '30 days rule' is implemented so that I can maximize my churning. Please take the time to read my initial question before offering nothing more useful than "do a search." because your unhelpful responses are simply cluttering this thread.
If this has in fact been previously covered, then I apologise for my annoyed tone, but I have not seen any discussion of this topic on FT or elsewhere.
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I recommend 60 days after activation but at a minimum of 30 days after activation of card. IMHO
WHen you stated "Some variances will make this ignored." What are the variances that you are referring to?
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WHen you stated "Some variances will make this ignored." What are the variances that you are referring to?
Many factors like 20 or more years of credit history all perfect, a pattern of accounts over many years accompanied with a low or no debt load and so on and so on. That information took me many years of training and schooling. No offense but I cannot give you a 6 year college degree and 4 years of job specific training and many years of OJT in a paragraph or even a website. sorry :(
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If you are young or have any negatives or are relatively limited or have a score under 780 then you will be headed downhill fast. It may even result in horrible credit in the near future and no ability to buy anything significant for many years of no applications. YMMV
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If you are young or have any negatives or are relatively limited or have a score under 780 then you will be headed downhill fast. It may even result in horrible credit in the near future and no ability to buy anything significant for many years of no applications. YMMV
Won't a cessation of churning bump one's score back up?
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Won't a cessation of churning bump one's score back up?
New accounts and inquiries are only 10% of your fico score. It can drop you at most 80 points or so. However, if you have short credit history or other blemishes on your credit such as high-credit card balances or late payments, this could make things worse. I have opened and closed several accounts lately. My score stays around 770 to 790. I do not have any credit blemishes and have reported credit card balances of less than 10% of my reported credit (on every card).
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New accounts and inquiries are only 10% of your fico score. It can drop you at most 80 points or so. However, if you have short credit history or other blemishes on your credit such as high-credit card balances or late payments, this could make things worse. I have opened and closed several accounts lately. My score stays around 770 to 790. I do not have any credit blemishes and have reported credit card balances of less than 10% of my reported credit (on every card).
That is what I thought, but:
If you are young or have any negatives or are relatively limited or have a score under 780 then you will be headed downhill fast. It may even result in horrible credit in the near future and no ability to buy anything significant for many years of no applications.
Note that she/he states or and not and. That post worries me a bit becuase I fit into the young category and my score is only in the very low 700s/690ish, but I have never had any credit issues and I have no debt.
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I will point out that more than one inquiry every 60 days is a reason for decline. Not that it will happen in every case but it is listed as a default decline in the computer software. Some variances will make this ignored. YMMV.
Is this with every bank? So, just to clarify: all banks automatically decline you if you have had any inquiry at all from any bank within 60 days? but then various redeeming factors can persuade them to give you credit?
Thanks for explaining this stuff ^
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That is what I thought, but:
Note that she/he states or and not and. That post worries me a bit becuase I fit into the young category and my score is only in the very low 700s/690ish, but I have never had any credit issues and I have no debt.
If your score is already low because you have applied for a bunch of credit, it should not be affected too much. If your score is low for other reasons, it will drop. Inquiries and new credit is around 10% of the possible 850 points.
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That's how I do it!
So, how do you know the exact day of approval? Do you call and ask?
Also, just to be really geeky about this....what exactly do we mean by 30 days then? Do there need to be 30 application-free days? or does the date your application was approved count as one of your days? and does the date that you apply on count as one of those days? So, depending on your interpretation of this, it could be anywhere from 29-31 days.
Again, I am just trying to perfect this art a bit based on some of the superb knowledge that us FTers have :D
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I don't want to get into a argument over this and there are trade secrets that I cannot disclose by contract but I will tell you that if your score is 700 and you start to churn say goodbye to good apr's in the near future and mortgages will get expensive. 10% is not a set rule and it actually can depend on the model the bank uses. All credit card companies do not rely on the credit bureau score. All scores are not the same, since there are now 4 models in operation, one for each bureau and one that is hoped to be a standard (it is worse than the others IMHO) Also some cc's have their own and use it in conjunction with and/or without regard to the others. If you are in the 790+ range then it is about 10% of the score. If you are less, it is more. In the 600 pt range it amounts to about 10 pts +/- for each hit. The score grows over time without inquiries but NOT very fast. The score drops with inquiries and all factors play into the amount of drop. Do not think for one minute that I or anyone else that has actual knowledge of the program, will disclose enough details for you to figure it out as all have signed very strict documents about this. :(
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I don't want to get into a argument over this and there are trade secrets that I cannot disclose by contract but I will tell you that if your score is 700 and you start to churn say goodbye to good apr's in the near future and mortgages will get expensive. 10% is not a set rule and it actually can depend on the model the bank uses. All credit card companies do not rely on the credit bureau score. All scores are not the same, since there are now 4 models in operation, one for each bureau and one that is hoped to be a standard (it is worse than the others IMHO) Also some cc's have their own and use it in conjunction with and/or without regard to the others. If you are in the 790+ range then it is about 10% of the score. If you are less, it is more. In the 600 pt range it amounts to about 10 pts +/- for each hit. The score grows over time without inquiries but NOT very fast. The score drops with inquiries and all factors play into the amount of drop. Do not think for one minute that I or anyone else that has actual knowledge of the program, will disclose enough details for you to figure it out as all have signed very strict documents about this. :(
Thanks for the info. very useful stuff.
Could I just press you to say a few words about the 60 days that you mentioned earlier though. That statement particuarly concerned me.
Just to clarify, my question was:
"Is this with every bank? So, just to clarify: all banks automatically decline you if you have had any inquiry at all from any bank within 60 days? but then various redeeming factors can persuade them to give you credit?"
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As mentioned before there is no lack of "how to" information on churning any of and all of the possible cards here on FT but some things are intentionally left vague for fear that the card issuers correct obvious deficiencies in their own policies.
It's best if you take what information is already available here and start your own investigation. You'll be surprised at how much information the card issuers are willing to share with you if you take the time.
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So, how do you know the exact day of approval? Do you call and ask? :D
Yes, I do.
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good info drbond. i certainly havent seen that kind of detail before on FT or elsewhere.
so you work for a financial group or something? :D
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If your score is in the low 700/690 range, you should heed drbond's advice and proceed very cautiously about "churning" cards. There is a huge difference between someone has a high 700 score and someone has a low 700 score.
You would be better off in the long run, to try to figure out WHY you have such a low score (being young is not necessary the correct reason), before you try so hard and poke around to "perfect the art of churning". There is no hard and fast rules because as drbond already so kindly hinted, there are so many variables involved in the processing of each application, no one can tell you exactly what would work and what wouldn't.
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If your score is in the low 700/690 range, you should heed drbond's advice and proceed very cautiously about "churning" cards. There is a huge difference between someone has a high 700 score and someone has a low 700 score.
You would be better off in the long run, to try to figure out WHY you have such a low score (being young is not necessary the correct reason), before you try so hard and poke around to "perfect the art of churning". There is no hard and fast rules because as drbond already so kindly hinted, there are so many variables involved in the processing of each application, no one can tell you exactly what would work and what wouldn't.
But I thought that there are SOME hard and fast rules. e.g. Amex only allows one bonus per lifetime, you can apply with bank of america every 30 days etc. I understand what you are getting at, but I certinly think you are overstating the case. We should be trying to open up this black box instead of seeing it as some mystical bundle of forces.
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We should be trying to open up this black box instead of seeing it as some mystical bundle of forces.
You dont get it, do you?
Didn't drbond already tell you in his last post the last few sentences?
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You dont get it, do you?
Didn't drbond already tell you in his last post the last few sentences?
I'm sorry, I don't really understand your rather rude post. What exactly are you talking about? What is the "it" that I am not getting?
I understand exactly what drbond stated in his post. Yet, why should I not continue to maintain that there are certain elements that can be figured out while accepting that there are certain elements that cannot.
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I'm sorry, I don't really understand your rather rude post. What exactly are you talking about? What is the "it" that I am not getting?
I understand exactly what drbond stated in his post. Yet, why should I not continue to maintain that there are certain elements that can be figured out while accepting that there are certain elements that cannot.
Let me try to state it this way.
People go to jail for printing what you are asking!
Now I am not saying that you can't get some information or that there is things that are going to cause an exact response. I did state earlier that No One in the know can give you enough information for you to recreate the scoring formulas. First its proprietary and Second would cause the fraudsters out there to be able to commit a lot more criminal activity that they already do. YMMV
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Let me try to state it this way.
People go to jail for printing what you are asking!
Now I am not saying that you can't get some information or that there is things that are going to cause an exact response. I did state earlier that No One in the know can give you enough information for you to recreate the scoring formulas. First its proprietary and Second would cause the fraudsters out there to be able to commit a lot more criminal activity that they already do. YMMV
I am not asking for any formulas; nor have I ever asked for any. I merely wanted to ask a few questions that would enable me and other FTers fine-tune our churning. I am not stupid; obviously there are some questions that can be answered and there are some that cannot. The purpose of this thread is to understand and answer the former and perhaps identify the latter.
It baffles me that people are attacking me for doing this. I receive comments such as: "You just don't get it, do you?" If the "it" refers to understanding all credit card/banking, and economic knowledge in the universe, then no I do not get it. And if you would read the things I have written I am not trying to understand it all. But, what is the problem with identifying the issues that we can fine-tune e.g. understanding a bit more about this 30-day rule, or whether issuers will give out multiple bonuses etc.
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I
It baffles me that people are attacking me for doing this.
Because you're not "giving" to the FT community, you're trying to "take" while adding no substantial benefit to other FTers, which is what this website is about. Stop asking for a free ride, it's not helpful to your objectives.
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I don't think there is anything wrong with trying to figure out what you can get away with. The only problem trying to figure it out is that you will most likely ruin your credit doing so. If your score drops many issuers will raise your APR based on that alone. You don't even have to be past due to get a default apr in some cases. So if you don't carry a balance, don't have any desires to get a mortgage or finance a car in the next 3 to 5 years. Then hack away at it. You ultimately have to ask yourself is the miles worth the cost of the damage to the report? That can also affect jobs and insurance premiums. Only you know the answer to this and no you can't fine tune IMHO. You can only look at what others have done and trial and error. But be warned, it can be hazardous to your score and ergo every thing else. If your score is not 800+, the game is not for you. YMMV
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Post #17 tells me that you cannot do this.
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Because you're not "giving" to the FT community, you're trying to "take" while adding no substantial benefit to other FTers, which is what this website is about. Stop asking for a free ride, it's not helpful to your objectives.
Are you honestly telling me that I cannot ask questions on this website because I am a relatively new member? This is absurd. I am not taking from anybody. I would be happy to share any knowledge that I have with anyone on here.
I would say that this thread would be quite beneficial to FTers if people weren't constantly posting nasty remarks and jabs.
So, please clarify: I cannot ask questions until I have "given"? So what exactly should I give (and how much of it) before I am allowed to ask questions without being attacked?
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Because you're not "giving" to the FT community, you're trying to "take" while adding no substantial benefit to other FTers, which is what this website is about. Stop asking for a free ride, it's not helpful to your objectives.
and what exactly have you "given" to this thread other than your dispariging remarks?
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and what exactly have you "given" to this thread other than your dispariging remarks?
Re-read post #23
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Re-read post #23
Re-Read post #1
Tell me, what exactly is the point of a credit card forum if we are censoring each other from talking about credit cards?
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Re-Read post #1
Tell me, what exactly is the point of a credit card forum if we are censoring each other from talking about credit cards?
post #1 re-read. I thought post #6 answered it. So why all the getting upset?
Oh, and to add someting else for you, BofA and Chase are different in more then name only, so take care with them.
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So why all the getting upset?
Well, lets see; maybe because certain members are telling me that I have no right to speak here! :rolleyes:
Maybe because certain members are making negative personal statements about me!
post #1 re-read. I thought post #6 answered it. So why all the getting upset?
Oh, and to add someting else for you, BofA and Chase are different in more then name only, so take care with them.
No way? Surely you jest :rolleyes:
Of course they are different. Hence the purpose of a thread such as this. A place to talk about such things. Wonderful idea eh? Why don't you follow your own suggestion and start giving, and maybe stop taking away from the focus of this thread.
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I thought post #6 answered it.
No it did not; please re-read the entirety of this thread (of course ignoring all of your posts).
There was a discussion as to whether it is 30 days or 60 days. We were trying to talk about the 60 days statement, before certain people decided to try and shut all rational discussion in this thread down.
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I for one have learned a great deal from "Dudemon" but nothing from "travelwave".
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I for one have learned a great deal from "Dudemon" but nothing from "travelwave".
Well, maybe because I am asking the question. That is probably why I don't have the answers.
Could you please share what you have learned from Dudemon? Are you talking about a PM she/he sent to you. In the spirit of learning, would you or Dudemon be willing to share the info if it is relevant to the thread?
As far as Dudemon's contributions to this thread, if you are talking about that, maybe you could point me to the right one in case I overlooked it?
In post #23 she/he adivises readers to do a search and stop asking questions
In post #32 she/he tells 'Travelwave' to stop asking questions because she/he is not "giving" to the FT community
In post #37 she/he advises readers to read post #23
In post #39 she/he advises readers that Bank of America and Chase are different.
Thats all I can find sorry. Is the "great deal" that you learnt referring to post #39?
I really quite shocked at the hosility shown by a few of the members of this forum because I simply asked a question without being a long term member of FT.
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So what has drbond, kagehitokori or kaukau contributed? Has anyone learned anything from them? They were the first posters.
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Sadly, Travelwave, you still dont get "it". Basically all the questions you asked have been indirectly or directly answered in this thread in one form or the other - if you still dont understand and insist on being spoon-fed, then, you will never be able to learn, or benefited from the FT community.
Hint, do a search of this Forum, you will find Dudemon has contributed a great deal on the subj.
In fact, if you do a search of the subj you are concerned about, not simply the 30day rule you are so obsessed of, you will learn a lot more then being frustrated. You have to use some effort in order to be benefited from the collective wisdom on the FT. But you are still not getting "it".
Finally, even if whatever the 30day rule works, with the majority of people, it may not work on you, simply because of your low score. Re-read drbond's kind posts to you and stop pointing your finger.
Remember, even the Search function not working well all the time, you can still use the Search function, spend time to read the relevant information on the broad subj and learn from there - instead of asking elementary questions and steadfastly refusing to carefully read others advices.
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Sadly, Travelwave, you still dont get "it". Basically all the questions you asked have been indirectly or directly answered in this thread in one form or the other - if you still dont understand and insist on being spoon-fed, then, you will never be able to learn, or benefited from the FT community.
Hint, do a search of this Forum, you will find Dudemon has contributed a great deal on the subj.
In fact, if you do a search of the subj you are concerned about, not simply the 30day rule you are so obsessed of, you will learn a lot more then being frustrated. You have to use some effort in order to be benefited from the collective wisdom on the FT. But you are still not getting "it".
Finally, even if whatever the 30day rule works, with the majority of people, it may not work on you, simply because of your low score. Re-read drbond's kind posts to you and stop pointing your finger.
Remember, even the Search function not working well all the time, you can still use the Search function, spend time to read the relevant information on the broad subj and learn from there - instead of asking elementary questions and steadfastly refusing to carefully read others advices.
I really don't unerstand your problem. There must be something that you are simply not getting. Have you actually read this thread? or do you usually jump in and attack people?
Finally, even if whatever the 30day rule works, with the majority of people, it may not work on you, simply because of your low score. Re-read drbond's kind posts to you and stop pointing your finger.
Remember, even the Search function not working well all the time, you can still use the Search function, spend time to read the relevant information on the broad subj and learn from there - instead of asking elementary questions and steadfastly refusing to carefully read others advices.
I have in fact read every thread on this subject. Have you? Obviously not :rolleyes:
The question I posed in post #1 had not been asked ANYWHERE. There were multiple opinions about this in response to my question and I thought that we could talk about them. Obvisouly bearning in mind that some things cannot be known (as per drbond's helpful posts). Unfortunately this thread got hijacked by characters such as yourself.
Again, my inital question has not been convered on FT! I am ready to apologise for my terrible crime of asking a question if it has in fact already been covered, but I am simply unable to find this info. I doubt that anyone else will be able to either.
and stop pointing your finger.
Another personal attack I see :rolleyes: Who or what exactly am I supposed to have been pointing my finger at? :confused: I do of some finger pointing that has been going on in this thread, and your might want to do some personal reflection to find out who it is...
Sadly, Travelwave, you still dont get "it". Basically all the questions you asked have been indirectly or directly answered in this thread in one form or the other - if you still dont understand and insist on being spoon-fed, then, you will never be able to learn, or benefited from the FT community.
So, you appear to be stating that all knowledge that can be gained and shared about this topic also already been posted. All other potential knowledge about credit cards, is simply unnatainable. Am I misinterpreting you? If not, was there a discussion about this, or is this simply your personal opinion and an attempt to stifle debate?
Seeing as my question has not appeared before on this forum, your logic appears to be that if I ask questions I will not be able to learn. I thus assume that you are saying that I can only learn if I do not ask questions. Kindy explain how this rediculous reasoning makes any sense? (or should I perhaps not ask this, because according to you knowledge and learning is not derived from questioning).
Instead of being so quick to attack people on this forum, why don't you try chilling out? Once you have calmed down, maybe come back to this thread and re-read the question (ignoring the personal attacks posted by you and others) and the ensuing debate.
I think you would actually benefit a lot more from FT if you allowed people to ask questions that have not been asked before, instead of resorting to attacks as a means of censorship.
p.s.
Re-read drbond's kind posts to you
Perhaps something we can agree on here. Drbond has been most helpful. His info did slightly conflict with what some others were saying, but that is the purpose of the thread: to get to the bottom of what we can understand, and figure out what has to remain in the black box of churning His comments have certainly added to the debate in this thread. I wish I could say the same about others...
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There is no end all be all knowledge about this subj. Anyone has any common sense understands that.
However, lots of very useful and helpful information have been indeed posted in this forum for the past 12 months at least. Many people have been greatly benefited from that. It is your loss that you think you cannot glean from the collective knowledge posted in this form and fine tune your approach.
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There is no end all be all knowledge about this subj. Anyone has any common sense understands that.
However, lots of very useful and helpful information have been indeed posted in this forum for the past 12 months at least. Many people have greatly benefited from that. It is your loss that you think you cannot glean from the collective knowledge posted in this form and fine tune your approach.
Your posts absolutely baffle me. Are you arguing with me, or some distorted construct of my arguments that you have created?
It is your loss that you think you cannot glean from the collective knowledge posted in this form and fine tune your approach.
Did I ever state that there is no useful information on this forum? I think not. Are you referring to me or someone else :confused: I certainly have never said such a thing. Your mischaracterisation of my posts in false at best, and nasty and malacious at worst. Please refrain from doing this?
Of course there is lots of information on FT. Why would anyone dispute this.
I will give you the benefit of the doubt right now. Usually I would question the intellectual integrity of someone that needs the same point restating to them this many times though.
I AM ASKING A QUESTION THAT HAS NOT BEEN ASKED BEFORE! Is there some part of this that you do not understand?
As I have now stated many times, the other information on FT is of course useful, but I do not see why I should not ask this question.
I would also like to kindly ask you to resist mischaracterising my positions in the future.
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Some of us see churning as a sport; others like myself consider it more of an art. For this reason I would like to perfect my art. What does it mean when we say that you can apply for a Bank of America or Chase card every 30 days?
ANSWER:
It meams that, at the minimum, no cc issuer will review an application by a current cardholder if received less than 30 days since approval of said cardholder's most recent account. You may call the cc issuer and ask the date of approval. They will be able to tell you.
30 days after you apply?
Nope, see above.
30 days after something happens in the inner workings of the bank?
Nope.
30 days after you receive and activate the card?
Nope.
30 days since your last application for any card?
30 days since APPROVAL of your most recent account within the same DIVISION of the issuing institution.
or 30 days since you applied with a different department e.g. Bank of America business vs. personal?
The business and personal divisions are seperate and don't care about the other's business, so treat 'em as such. If you call your credit card issuer, a customer service agent will be able confirm my opinions on this. Please post any experiences you get, as your "mileage" may vary.
I welcome the input here.
Cheers ^
Hope this helped!
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ROFLMAO
(To everyone else in this tread, this guy is choosing to turn our civilized discussions into a personal tirade. Let's let travelwave post a few more bolded comments and let it die.)
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Hope this helped!
Just to throw in my 2 cents to this lovely discussion; it seems like the OPs question had been (kind of) answered, but....
Kaukau: I do not think he was asking for re-clarification of the 30-day issue. He was trying to get a discussion going, because interspersed in all of your flowery comments there was a statement about banks automatically putting your application in a different pile if you are within 60 days.
Dudemon and others: I for one think that this is a pretty legit thing to ask and I have also have seen no mention of this before.
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Just to throw in my 2 cents to this lovely discussion; it seems like the OPs question had been (kind of) answered, but....
Kaukau: I do not think he was asking for re-clarification of the 30-day issue. He was trying to get a discussion going, because interspersed in all of your flowery comments there was a statement about banks automatically putting your application in a different pile if you are within 60 days.
Dudemon and others: I for one think that this is a pretty legit thing to ask and I have also have seen no mention of this before.
I just parsed the OP down to each question and answered them to my best experience. What's the next question?
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I just parsed the OP down to each question and answered them to my best experience. What's the next question?
Well, like I said in my last post, I do not think the OP ever asked for a reclarification of what has been said in this post. It sounds like his beef is that people are basically telling him to shut up.
Again, like I said in the my last post, it seems that there was a mention somewhere in this thread that there is essentially no 30 day rule. Drbond stated that an inquiry every 60 days is a reason for decline. I know this was clarified a little bit later on, but I think it is a legit question to ask about the specifics of this.
Why there have been pages of arguments, trying to shut this thread down I do not know. You people have too much pent up anger or frustration or something :)
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Here's what each institution's CSA's have told me over the phone. I call them and ask these questions.
BofA: Wait 30 days
Chase: Wait 45 days
Citi: Wait 60 days
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Heres what each institution's CSA's have told me over the phone. I call them and ask these questions.
BofA: Wait 30 days
Chase: Wait 45 days
Citi: Wait 60 days
wow, well I though common knowledge on these boards was that Chase is every 30 days? so they actually told you 45? interesting. thanks for sharing ^
Anyway, so is drbond's statement incorrect: "more than one inquiry every 60 days is a reason for decline. Not that it will happen in every case but it is listed as a default decline in the computer software"
whose computer software? all banks?
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One will receive a "credit denied" letter, an informative letter with a very useful phone #, if you send in an application too soon. Call this # and ask to speak to a Credit Manager. They can override this letter. They are the ones who will handle clients who wish to hold many accounts. Ask these knowledgable professionals how to properly go about this with their particular cc division. They want clients!
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One will receive an informative letter with a very useful phone # if you send in an application too soon. Call this # and ask to speak to a Credit Manager. They are the ones who will handle clients who wish to hold many accounts. Ask these knowledgable professionals how to properly go about this with their particular cc division. They want clients!
This is what I have always done. I have also gotten a lot of useful info from the banks themselves. But like martian pointed out, I was wondering about the 60 days statement, because it seemed to come from a knowledgable source. 60 days contradicts what the banks have told me. Thats why I was wondering what drbond meant? was he referring to one particular bank (he doesn't have to share the name if that is confidential) or all banks?
So, we have 2 choices here: (1) we can have a civilized discussion about this, or (2) the likes of dudemon and happy can say stuff like "just do a search," "you just don't get it," and 'you can't ask questions until you have given to the FT community'
I would prefer option (1)
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Seems to me, that 60 days between approvals, from 3 institutions, times 2 cards each, (business and personal) is......36 accounts opened a year? Is that correct? 2 x 3 x 6 =36. One could push that a bit, as we've discussed, but, taking the long view, 180 accounts opened in 5 years isn't shabby.
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Seems to me, that 60 days between approvals, from 3 institutions, times 2 cards each, (business and personal) is......36 accounts opened a year? Is that correct? 2 x 3 x 6 =36. One could push that a bit, as we've discussed, but, taking the long view, 180 accounts opened in 5 years isn't shabby.
I would agree that 36 accounts a year is a lot. That is a lot of credit cards! and credit hits :(
However, we have both been told by various banks that they go below that the 60 day limit (30 or 45 days). So, I am therefore wondering about what drbond meant? was he referring to one particular bank (he doesn't have to share the name if that is confidential) or all banks? He made it sound like a universal limit, and then implied that exceptions can be made. So, if Chase and Bank of America are approving apps within the 60 day limit are they making exceptions? or do they not have this 60 day thing in the first place?
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Each Credit Manager can make exceptions to any rule if they want to! That's the root of the issue. Rules are not industry wide, they tend to be capricious, even. But as one's card collection grows, so does one's understanding of the fluid nature of extending and stewarding unsecured credit. Hence the importance of developing a personal relationship with each division's Credit Managers.
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Each Credit Manager can make exceptions to any rule if they want to! That's the root of the issue. Rules are not industry wide, they tend to be capricious, even. But as one's card collection grows, so does one's understanding of the fluid nature of extending and stewarding unsecured credit. Hence the importance of developing a personal relationship with each division's Credit Managers.
Of course, I would wholeheartedly agree about developing a relationship with the credit manager. However, while they can make exceptions to the rules, that does not mean that rules do not exist. Drbond's post seemed to imply that there was a standard 60 day rule.
Again, I understand that these things are fluid and complex, but it would be useful to know the rules that exceptions are being made from.
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I roll with these rules:
BofA: 30 days
Chase: 45 days
Citi: 60 days
They work for me! They may not work for you! I have been informed that what works for me may ruin another person's credit rating, so please take caution!
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From my conversations with "credit managers" they are more concerned with the total credit limit....not the amount of cards issued. When my limit got too high they just split the credit line from one card and issued me a new card. Still, I got the bonus sign up points for the new card.
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Ok, lets try to put this to rest:
1. No credit card issuer will approve an application from the same party within 30 days of the approval or decline of a prior application.
2. Some cc issuers will not a accept an application from a declined applicant up to 6 months out.
3. Different banks different rules 30-180. YMMV
4. You can be declined under this clause "Excessive Inquiries" and the computer set is 3 inquiries within 6 months. There are exceptions that will NOT be disclosed. One that can be disclosed is mortgage and car purchase inquiries can be excepted if documented.
5. You can also be declined under this clause "Too Many Recent Accounts".
I space my applications out by 60 days to avoid triggering a decline. I of course no how to get a reconsideration but that is a LONG story. You have stated your particulars vaguely and the way you stated your information. You could be declined on your next application or your third application, but you will ruin your credit based on your stated score and will then be jeopardized in the future.
I really do hope this statement puts this to bed once and for all. Please everyone be kind or just ignore the posts on this thread. Thanks.
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Ok, lets try to put this to rest:
1. No credit card issuer will approve an application from the same party within 30 days of the approval or decline of a prior application.
2. Some cc issuers will not a accept an application from a declined applicant up to 6 months out.
3. Different banks different rules 30-180. YMMV
4. You can be declined under this clause "Excessive Inquiries" and the computer set is 3 inquiries within 6 months. There are exceptions that will NOT be disclosed. One that can be disclosed is mortgage and car purchase inquiries can be excepted if documented.
5. You can also be declined under this clause "Too Many Recent Accounts".
I space my applications out by 60 days to avoid triggering a decline. I of course no how to get a reconsideration but that is a LONG story. You have stated your particulars vaguely and the way you stated your information. You could be declined on your next application or your third application, but you will ruin your credit based on your stated score and will then be jeopardized in the future.
I really do hope this statement puts this to bed once and for all. Please everyone be kind or just ignore the posts on this thread. Thanks.
Thanks for your assertive post on this. One more questions if I dare...
The number here relates to the number you used above.
1. Does this also apply to business vs. personal cards at the same bank? or are they considered to be different issuers?
And, do all of the things you stated up there apply to business cards in the same manner?
Thanks.
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As far as 1-3 business card departments and personal card departments are seperate at some banks, such as BofA and Amex and Citi. Many other banks they are the same department, you have to ask them.
As far as the rest, an inquiry is an inquiry regardless of the type of credit you are applying for. It is still your SSN and it hits your CBR.
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This thread has taken a real turn for the nasty. In the last several hours it seems to have returned to proper course.
(1) I'm not going to go through and edit out anyone's posts. Members on this thread will just have to lvie with what they've written.
(2) Everyone, for the good of the community (and shared knowledge, and preserving one's posting privileges), needs to continue this trend of staying on topic in a civil fashion.
Any further deviations will be dealt with per Flyertalk's Guidelines and Rules, and all members having posted in this thread and posting again are hereby put on notice of this.
Thanks!
Gary
aka gleff
Senior Moderator
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I churn cards with Citi AAdvanatge for the past couple of months...Here is what happened...
I applied to the AA 25th anniversary in May and got approved...then a better offer came along, I applied, got rejected and was told it was an "internal" issue" -- 60 day crap.
Anyway, I did not apply for another card till August...approved...
Now that is two cards from May-Aug -- Just for fun, I did it on online...I now have gone thru 2 cards from Aug-Oct and have another one in the pipeline...just got approved a few days ago...so that it makes it 3 cards from Aug-Oct and will apply for another one in 7-10days as I close the current one tomorow.
so, the 30/60 day rule is not steadfast since I keep consolidating the credit lines into the Chairman Card so, I do not keep the accts open for more than a month....
Maybe this is because of the consolidation .....
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You have stated your particulars vaguely and the way you stated your information. You could be declined on your next application or your third application, but you will ruin your credit based on your stated score and will then be jeopardized in the future.
Thanks for very informative post. The statement above sounds scary I'm newbie here, so please ignore this post if I' asking inappropriate questions.
As I understand - recent "hard pulls" are inquires made within past 6 month.
As far as I can say looking at my credit history, at least all CC inquires should disappear from the record after 2 years.
So by saying "you will ruin your credit ... and will then be jeopardized in the future" did you mean that it would be almost impossible to get credit for 6 month and some problems may occur for the next 2 years?
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Thanks for very informative post. The statement above sounds scary I'm newbie here, so please ignore this post if I' asking inappropriate questions.
As I understand - recent "hard pulls" are inquires made within past 6 month.
As far as I can say looking at my credit history, at least all CC inquires should disappear from the record after 2 years.
So by saying "you will ruin your credit ... and will then be jeopardized in the future" did you mean that it would be almost impossible to get credit for 6 month and some problems may occur for the next 2 years?
correct
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Is this how long closed accounts stay on your report? (2 years)
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Is this how long closed accounts stay on your report? (2 years)
closed accounts can stay for up to 7 years
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Is this how long closed accounts stay on your report? (2 years)
No, it's how long inquiries stay on your report. Closed accounts can stay on your credit report indefinitely. I still have the original card I signed up for 20 years ago showing up.
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No, it's how long inquiries stay on your report. Closed accounts can stay on your credit report indefinitely. I still have the original card I signed up for 20 years ago showing up.
Is having lots of closed accounts considered to be a strike against you?
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closed accounts can stay for up to 7 years
I have one that was opened in 1987 and still on my report despite last activity/closed in 1994. Though Experian shows a schedule when certain cards are scheduled to drop off from the report - looks to me they use 10 years as cut-off.
The 7 years seems to be used for blemishes - a friend had a couple late payments on her student loan and the blemishes stayed on her report for 7 long years despite the loan was since paid off.
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Is having lots of closed accounts considered to be a strike against you?
No. I have many more closed than open accounts on my laundry list of a credit report. You know the bad stuff - late payments and worse.
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I would add that all this would not be possible without the full-on cooperation and consent of the cc issuers - no credit manager has ever told me to stop acquiring more accounts - so Thank You, Citi, Chase, and BofA, and continued success to your cc divisions.
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I would add that all this would not be possible without the full-on cooperation and consent of the cc issuers - no credit manager has ever told me to stop acquiring more accounts - so Thank You, Citi, Chase, and BofA, and continued success to your cc divisions.
Do they ever ask why you want so many cards?
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Do they ever ask why you want so many cards?
Yes, and I always say "for the sign-up bonus miles!" and they always answer "Of course you do. It's a great offer." And I say "Straight-up, it sure is. I love Chase, and am fully addicted to opening new accounts as often as possible. Would you tell me again how often I may apply for a new account with you?" And so it goes. Straight up.
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2 years for inquiries
7 years for derogatories
10 years for bankruptcies
No limit on neutrals or positives
And before someone asks that means open and closed accounts.
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Are there then better or worse ways to close an account? i.e. are there any benefits to merging with another line as opposed to just closing? (ignoring credit line increases) or is that basically the same thing?
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Are there then better or worse ways to close an account? i.e. are there any benefits to merging with another line as opposed to just closing? (ignoring credit line increases) or is that basically the same thing?
Hi, travelwave! Go to the MilesBuzz forum, first page. Read the "21000 UA Miles for Chase Credit Card" thread started by SteamEngine. Easy to find. Your answers are in there!
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Are there then better or worse ways to close an account? i.e. are there any benefits to merging with another line as opposed to just closing? (ignoring credit line increases) or is that basically the same thing?
Quite honestly I don't think you have a Chairman Card so you will not be able to do anything with merging. There is only one way for you to close an account and that is to close it. If you could merge it would still be closed. I am beginning to agree this thread should be locked. The title will cause ft spies to read and maybe take away some of the benefits enjoyed by ft'ers. Change the title to eliminate the word churn and it might be ok.
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Quite honestly I don't think you have a Chairman Card so you will not be able to do anything with merging. There is only one way for you to close an account and that is to close it. If you could merge it would still be closed. I am beginning to agree this thread should be locked. The title will cause ft spies to read and maybe take away some of the benefits enjoyed by ft'ers. Change the title to eliminate the word churn and it might be ok.
amen
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amen
amen
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I've never had any problem with reallocation/merging, i.e. taking the credit line from an account I'm about to close and adding it to another before closing it. This is with Citi and Chase (not Chairman cards).
I don't think there's anything "taboo" about this... I think most issuers explicitly allow it for customers in good standing (Amex even lets you do it on their website). Not sure why this needs to be kept hush-hush?
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If you are young or have any negatives or are relatively limited or have a score under 780 then you will be headed downhill fast. It may even result in horrible credit in the near future and no ability to buy anything significant for many years of no applications.
Going to respectfully disagree here. I've seen folks who are young, of modest income, and have scores around 700 churn with great success (and keep their scores around 700). In fact, sometimes the large number of accounts seems to be beneficial for someone young because it adds a lot of positive history to an otherwise thin credit file. The inquiries don't really make a lot of difference after the first few, and if you plan a bit, you can get to know which issuers pull which bureaus in your area and space out your apps accordingly. FICO weighs inquiries much less heavily after 6 months and not at all after 12 months, so if you go with a ~3-month schedule, the older inquiries will roll off the scoring model as the new ones are added.
The most important thing is never to miss any payments. Having a lot of accounts with different due dates can be like playing with fire in this regard.
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So, how do you know the exact day of approval? Do you call and ask?
You can also check your credit report. The day of the inquiry is usually the day of approval/denial.
With Citi it's almost always the same day (they usually pull the report "while you wait" after you submit the app).
With Chase it's generally the following day (not sure why - just takes them time to get info from one system to another I guess).
With Juniper it always seems to be pulled "while you wait," but if it goes into manual review, you can check http://www.applicationstatus.com and they'll tell you the date of your approval.
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You can also check your credit report. The day of the inquiry is usually the day of approval/denial.This is only true if you get "instant" approval (or denial). If your app needs further underwriting it will not be the case since the credit pull in computer generated at the time you sbumit the app.
Currently Chase is 3+ weeks out on underwriting apps that aren't auto approved. Not sure about Citi, BofA, Juniper or Amex.
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This is only true if you get "instant" approval (or denial). If your app needs further underwriting it will not be the case since the credit pull in computer generated at the time you sbumit the app.
This is true, but I think the date they begin processing the application is the determinant in spacing out the apps. I've noticed Citi and Chase's "reference numbers" are always built around the date of the original pull (day of app with Citi, business day following with Chase). I may be wrong, though.
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One other quick note: Most reports on Juniper suggest they will decline an app for a product for which you already have an open account. When I did the Juniper churn, I closed my existing account before applying. After approval I was then able to reopen the older account. YMMV.
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One other quick note: Most reports on Juniper suggest they will decline an app for a product for which you already have an open account. When I did the Juniper churn, I closed my existing account before applying. After approval I was then able to reopen the older account. YMMV.
What is the best strategy to take if you are denied for having sufficient available credit with a bank? Close cards? reduce limits? or both?
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One other quick note: Most reports on Juniper suggest they will decline an app for a product for which you already have an open account. When I did the Juniper churn, I closed my existing account before applying. After approval I was then able to reopen the older account. YMMV.
Why would you want to reopen the older account, esp you only go after the sign-up bonuses?
On the other note about "reference number" - I am not sure every card application gets one. My current experiences are there is none for UA and none for AA either. Dont remember how it was few months back.
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What is the best strategy to take if you are denied for having sufficient available credit with a bank? Close cards? reduce limits? or both?
Both...close cards if it is a new one...keep the oldest open the longest
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Why would you want to reopen the older account, esp you only go after the sign-up bonuses?
To combine the credit limits and/or keep the age provided by the older account. If neither of these is a factor, the older account can be left closed.
On the other note about "reference number" - I am not sure every card application gets one. My current experiences are there is none for UA and none for AA either. Dont remember how it was few months back.
I've only seen it on a decline letter or a request for more information/verification letter. It seems unnecessary for approvals since there is no further follow-up.
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What is the best strategy to take if you are denied for having sufficient available credit with a bank? Close cards? reduce limits? or both?
As soon as the card arrives to your residence you should be calling the issuer and asking them to reduce the credit limit to the minimum they allow for that particular card (usually around 5k but it varies).
Depending on your specific situation card issuers can decline you for too much credit, even though it was issued by another bank.
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What is the best strategy to take if you are denied for having sufficient available credit with a bank?
I once got such a letter from Citi and they offered to divide the credit line on an existing account. I didn't really like the allocation they proposed, so I called and had a different amount allocated from a different card and they processed the approval for the new card.
I would imagine other banks might also offer you a similar option in such a situation ("we cannot extend you any more credit at this time, but we can issue a new card with a portion of your existing $x credit line"). Even if the letter does not explicitly say so, you could call and discuss this with a credit analyst.
Reducing credit limits leads to higher utilization, which is a negative score factor, so the strategy of voluntarily reducing credit lines is one to be undertaken with care depending on your FICO score, how much other credit you have available, and your overall credit situation. (Generally the "too much available credit" reason only comes into play for people with a VERY large amount of unused credit, who would tend to have high FICO scores anyway.)
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(Generally the "too much available credit" reason only comes into play for people with a VERY large amount of unused credit, who would tend to have high FICO scores anyway.)
Or if you're churning 8-12 cards a month.
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I once got such a letter from Citi and they offered to divide the credit line on an existing account. I didn't really like the allocation they proposed, so I called and had a different amount allocated from a different card and they processed the approval for the new card.
In our case Citi seems always just make a phone call and offer to move some credit line from one that is very underutilized (usually it is used between 5% to 10% and a quite high credit line to begin with because of its age.) I never receive a letter from them, but a couple phone calls in the past. I dont know how much one's FICO would be affected - that a particular card with long history has the line fluctuated every few months as the credit line together w/statement balance is reported each month.
Reducing credit limits leads to higher utilization, which is a negative score factor, so the strategy of voluntarily reducing credit lines is one to be undertaken with care depending on your FICO score, how much other credit you have available, and your overall credit situation. (Generally the "too much available credit" reason only comes into play for people with a VERY large amount of unused credit, who would tend to have high FICO scores anyway.)
It is a very much YMMV thing. Sometimes banks do crazy thing - Chase once called me on a cancelled card that had a very decent line. The woman offered to add that line back to one of my open Chase cards. I took it just to get her off the phone and the line sure was added back to the card I named. I then called Chase to get rid of the excess. Nutty.
I tend to think that FICO is only the initial factor banks use for approval. There are lots more variables come into play beyond FICO.
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Or if you're churning 8-12 cards a month.
In practice, this would have the same effect, wouldn't it? (a large amount of underutilized credit)