Question
Could someone please explain the process of credit card churning or link me to a thread that does explain it? I was curious what the process is and how quickly people go through the card application/receipt/activation/use/cancel of the card. Thanks for the help.
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On the upper right hand corner of the page you'll see an option called "search this forum" if you select it and plug in the keyword "churn" you'll find a number of theads on the subject.
Here's the most relevent one:
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=578909&highlight=churn
Welcome to FT :)
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I was more looking into what the timeframes were. I have applied for and gotten the HH plat amex card and the CO chase mastercard. I haven't activated those yet. I already have a Citi AA card that Ive had for a couple years. I was wondering what the time frames should be regarding activating/using/canceling these cards and also the timeframes on getting more of them to max my miles/HH points. Thanks for the help.
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The time you would have to wait all depends on the credit card. From my experience (and from reading other posts on this topic, per the search function, as the previous poster recommends) these are the time frames you must wait before being able to apply for a new card.
American Express (Delta, Starwood, etc.): Can't churn these cards. Only one signup bonus allowed.
Citibank (AA): 8 weeks
Chase (CO, BA, UA): 6 weeks
US Bank (NW): Can't churn these cards. Only one signup bonus allowed.
Bank of America (US): ??
Juniper Bank (US, Midwest, etc.): Can't churn these cards. Some people have posted that they have received multiple signup bonuses but if you read the terms and conditions they state that you can only receive a bonus once, and if you do, they reserve the right to charge you for the cost of the miles or revoke them.
Most card issuers don't make you wait a certain amount of time before applying for a new account after you cancel an existing one, but they do limit how often they will consider offering you credit (i.e. every 6 weeks, 8 weeks, etc.). In theory (and based on my experience: in practice) you can cancel a card and re-apply for very next day, or even later that same day.
If you don't already have too many cards with a given issuer (usually the limit is 3-4 (or more) depending on credit history, income, etc.) you can usually have two or more ACTIVE cards of a certain type (i.e. two Chase United MasterCards) from a given bank.
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Does anyone know if you can "churn" the Citi Premier Pass Elite credit card?
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Does anyone know if you can "churn" the Citi Premier Pass Elite credit card?
Why would you? Just for the 15k TY point bonus? I guess since the 15k TY points count for flight points matching...
AFAIK, they don't waive the annual fee for the first year on Premier Pass Elite, so I think for simplicity sake I would keep my PP and churn another TY card - its pretty easy to find TY cards that give you 10k bonus (Professional, Diamond, etc), but you can't use these for flight point matching. You can, however, throw them in the same TY account so you can use them as points to get flights with. The CitiBusiness TY card gives you 15k bonus points of you apply through the right link, but unless you really have a business I wouldn't churn this as it may look suspicious if you apply as a sole propitiator every time.
Note that Citi only allows you to apply for 2 cards within a 90 day period, and I've read they are strict on allowing you to get too many of their cards (3-5 max, but this isn't an exact limit, some people have gotten higher). Citi Personal and Citi Business are separate though.
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Why would you? Just for the 15k TY point bonus? I guess since the 15k TY points count for flight points matching...
Note that Citi only allows you to apply for 2 cards within a 90 day period, and I've read they are strict on allowing you to get too many of their cards (3-5 max, but this isn't an exact limit, some people have gotten higher). Citi Personal and Citi Business are separate though.
Actually citi usually makes you wait 60 days before applying for another card.....
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Actually citi usually makes you wait 60 days before applying for another card.....
Your right...I just checked my records and that is what their letter says. For some reason I was thinking 90.
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Just curious-- will churning credit cards ultimately lower one's credit score and create havoc on one's credit report? This is the assumption I have made that has always kept me from applying for new accounts just to collect points and miles.
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Just curious-- will churning credit cards ultimately lower one's credit score and create havoc on one's credit report? This is the assumption I have made that has always kept me from applying for new accounts just to collect points and miles.
this depends on your financial well being....if you have a high credit score -- say over 750...then this will hardly place a dent as long as you do not go crazy...also, this depends on your debt to asset ratio....if it is very low, then no problem...
also, do not recommend this to people who are in the market to buy a house within 6 months.,..
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American Express (Delta, Starwood, etc.): Can't churn these cards. Only one signup bonus allowed.
I'm pretty sure it is possible to get more than one signup bonus with the above card. ;)
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Actually citi usually makes you wait 60 days before applying for another card.....Not so for me, I cancelled one and opened another the next day. I even told them what I was doing and they didn't care.
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Not so for me, I cancelled one and opened another the next day. I even told them what I was doing and they didn't care.
We were refering to a delay between applications - you can only do 2 applications every 60 days. I think that is specifically for Mastercards (Visa's and Business cards don't count from what I've seen), but since those are the majority of Citi's cards with bonusoffers it essientally applies.
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Does anyone know if you can "churn" the Citi Premier Pass Elite credit card?
I don't fully understand this yet, but it sounds like you can only pool the points from various cards when you actually spend the points. So if you close the account before spending the points, you will probably lose them. And you probably don't want to spend them until getting at least 10-15K flight points to match.
So maybe you can get the card, fly two transcontinental round trips, then get a free domestic ticket, then close the card and try again.
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I don't fully understand this yet, but it sounds like you can only pool the points from various cards when you actually spend the points. So if you close the account before spending the points, you will probably lose them. And you probably don't want to spend them until getting at least 10-15K flight points to match.
So maybe you can get the card, fly two transcontinental round trips, then get a free domestic ticket, then close the card and try again.
Your points pool into a seperate TY account which you add sponsor accounts to. Canceling a sponsor account shouldn't forfeit any points, unless it is the only sponsor account.
Flight points on the PP cards (and drive points on Drivers edge), however, are only transfered to actual TY points once they are matched by purchase points.
Therfore, you can churn the PP elite, but it would only be worthwhile doing so after you flew 15k miles and your flight points got transfered over. Otherwise your wasting the $75 annual fee (unless its the business card, which the first year fee is waived) to get 5k extra bonus points (as a 10k bonus on a normal card is very easy to come by, and 15k on TY Business if you apply through the right link).
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The time you would have to wait all depends on the credit card. From my experience (and from reading other posts on this topic, per the search function, as the previous poster recommends) these are the time frames you must wait before being able to apply for a new card.
American Express (Delta, Starwood, etc.): Can't churn these cards. Only one signup bonus allowed.
Citibank (AA): 8 weeks
Chase (CO, BA, UA): 6 weeks
US Bank (NW): Can't churn these cards. Only one signup bonus allowed.
Bank of America (US): ??
Bank of America (US): 30 days
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I was able to churn Citibank with no delay. About to do it again.
As a side note, my domestic partner (of 19 years) and I are getting a new home equity line of credit. Because of that, the lender gave us our credit scores. Here's the strange stuff: he got a 756, I got a 716. 99% of every credit we have is in both names, so I don't understand how I got 40 points lower. (Could it be my card churning????) There are only two differences in our credit behaviour -- I took a capital one card at zero percent for balance transfer, and moved $30,000 from my 9% home equity line to the capital one card. That one is in my name only. And two churns for Citibank that are in my name only. Other than that, both names are on everything.
The list of things that the report says adversly affected my rating were (in this order:)
1. Too many accounts with balances. BOGUS. I have 3 credit cards with balances, two of them get paid in full each month, the other is at zero percent.
2. No recent revolving balances. I suppose this is true -- I pay it off each month. I suppose they would like me to not do that. And my cars are paid off, etc. Only one home mortgage and one credit card @ 0% don't get paid off each month.
3. Length of time accounts have been established -- well if the new citibank cards are a factor, then I guess this is true. But it seems like the negative aspect of this should go away when I close the account... And the original Citibank card (which is the one I actually use) has been around for many many years.
4. Too many accounts recently opened -- TRUE, but they are being closed as fast as they are opened.
So I guess the churning IS hurting my score a little. Oh well, for 25,000 miles I'm willing to take a little hit on my credit score. Does anyone know if CLOSING accounts will delete the adverse effect of recently opening the accounts?
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I was able to churn Citibank with no delay. About to do it again.
As a side note, my domestic partner (of 19 years) and I are getting a new home equity line of credit. Because of that, the lender gave us our credit scores. Here's the strange stuff: he got a 756, I got a 716. 99% of every credit we have is in both names, so I don't understand how I got 40 points lower. (Could it be my card churning????) There are only two differences in our credit behaviour -- I took a capital one card at zero percent for balance transfer, and moved $30,000 from my 9% home equity line to the capital one card. That one is in my name only. And two churns for Citibank that are in my name only. Other than that, both names are on everything.
The list of things that the report says adversly affected my rating were (in this order:)
1. Too many accounts with balances. BOGUS. I have 3 credit cards with balances, two of them get paid in full each month, the other is at zero percent.
2. No recent revolving balances. I suppose this is true -- I pay it off each month. I suppose they would like me to not do that. And my cars are paid off, etc. Only one home mortgage and one credit card @ 0% don't get paid off each month.
3. Length of time accounts have been established -- well if the new citibank cards are a factor, then I guess this is true. But it seems like the negative aspect of this should go away when I close the account... And the original Citibank card (which is the one I actually use) has been around for many many years.
4. Too many accounts recently opened -- TRUE, but they are being closed as fast as they are opened.
So I guess the churning IS hurting my score a little. Oh well, for 25,000 miles I'm willing to take a little hit on my credit score. Does anyone know if CLOSING accounts will delete the adverse effect of recently opening the accounts?
I am in a simular positio. My score is about 40 points lower than SO. I also churn AAdantage cards. They have a revolving credit limit.
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=575153&highlight=citi+revolving
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The list of things that the report says adversly affected my rating were (in this order:)
4. Too many accounts recently opened -- TRUE, but they are being closed as fast as they are opened.
So I guess the churning IS hurting my score a little. Oh well, for 25,000 miles I'm willing to take a little hit on my credit score. Does anyone know if CLOSING accounts will delete the adverse effect of recently opening the accounts?
As has been said in other threads, churning will hurt your score by about 30 or so points. Sounds like your case is right in line with that.
Also, just because you close an account does not mean that it goes off your credit report. Even closed accounts stay on your report for a minimum of 2 years.
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[QUOTE=anaggie]then this will hardly place a dent as long as you do not go crazy
QUOTE]
define 'going crazy'... :D
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I just signed up for and used a chase CO Mastercard for the first time. Now that I am about to get charged the annual fee i have called to cancel it. The CSR said that I wont get the miles, did i do something wrong or do they just not know? I am about to do the same with a citi HH visa card and dont want to make any mistakes again if I made one. Please help a newbie with churning. Thank you.
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Typically you need to wait until your miles actually post to your ff account before you cancel.
I just signed up for and used a chase CO Mastercard for the first time. Now that I am about to get charged the annual fee i have called to cancel it. The CSR said that I wont get the miles, did i do something wrong or do they just not know? I am about to do the same with a citi HH visa card and dont want to make any mistakes again if I made one. Please help a newbie with churning. Thank you.
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[QUOTE=anaggie]then this will hardly place a dent as long as you do not go crazy
QUOTE]
define 'going crazy'... :D
Post number 5 here
http://flyertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=6195850#post6195850
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Typically you need to wait until your miles actually post to your ff account before you cancel.On a related note, with Citibank the 25000 bonus miles plus the ??? miles I spent on a purchase credited to my AA miles 2 days after I made the purchase, way before the statement was issued or paid.
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[QUOTE=anaggie]then this will hardly place a dent as long as you do not go crazy
QUOTE]
define 'going crazy'... :D
4 cards in the same month...I usually do one every 2 months...so that I earn 100,000 - 120,000 miles in a year on AA just on bonuses...
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Just churned another Aadvantage card...so that is now 2 cards within the last 4 months..not bad...45000mile earned...but the good thing is that with the Chairman Card you can consolidate credit lines which brings my total credit limit to 47000USD...
woohoo....am shooting for the 100,000USD mark....
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Just churned another Aadvantage card...so that is now 2 cards within the last 4 months..not bad...45000mile earned...but the good thing is that with the Chairman Card you can consolidate credit lines which brings my total credit limit to 47000USD...
woohoo....am shooting for the 100,000USD mark....
And since the Chairman card and other "no preset spending limit" cards don't report credit limits to the agencies you're golden!
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And since the Chairman card and other "no preset spending limit" cards don't report credit limits to the agencies you're golden!
Exactly...since there is no preset spending limit, they do not let you charge like crazy but approve your decision based on your payment...this way with the high credit limit, the card will not declined for any big purchase...
Love this card !!!!
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On a related note, with Citibank the 25000 bonus miles plus the ??? miles I spent on a purchase credited to my AA miles 2 days after I made the purchase, way before the statement was issued or paid.
My bonus miles and purchase miles were not credited until a day or two after the statement posted. YMMV I guess.
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Has anyone had success churning Cit AA Amex?
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Has anyone had success churning Cit AA Amex?
I don't have experience with the Amex version of the AA card; however since it's also issued by Citibank I can't imagine it'd be any different than the MC version.
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My wife just signed up for a citi aadvantage card with 20,000 mile bonus and no fee for a year. Although she did not mention me, they sent a card in my name as well as her name. Can I sign up for the same card now and get the bonus?
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My wife just signed up for a citi aadvantage card with 20,000 mile bonus and no fee for a year. Although she did not mention me, they sent a card in my name as well as her name. Can I sign up for the same card now and get the bonus?Yes. Your wife ordered a second card with your name on it, which is not relevant when considering if you should open a new Citibank charge account. You can have multiple charge accounts w/ Citibank anyway. But if you are actually going to "churn" them, keep the one you have had longest and leave it alone, and then add and delete new cards as long as the promotion lasts (which I think is currently the end of 2006 but will probably change multiple times between now and then).
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The odd thing is my wife did not order a second card for me or mention my name in any way. We share many other credit cards and accounts, including at Citi, so I figure they got my name that way.
Good to hear I can order my own. More miles are a good thing
thanks
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What exactly is invovled in Credit Card churning? Keeping the old card, Citi AA in my case, and keep applying for newer ones to get the bonus miles?
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I suggest that all who are churning keep a spread sheet of the activity. You should keep at least app date, pts posting date, statement date and closed date. If you do this you'll see some trends appear and be able to assist the hard core churners when those interesting annomalies arise.
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We do not really Fly AA - Would it still be worth it to churn Citi-aa and transfer for Hilton points. (I think the transfer is 2 to 1) or is there a better way to accumulate Hilton honors points. We already have the amex and visa hhonors cards.
Advise please.
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We do not really Fly AA - Would it still be worth it to churn Citi-aa and transfer for Hilton points. (I think the transfer is 2 to 1) or is there a better way to accumulate Hilton honors points. We already have the amex and visa hhonors cards.
Advise please.
I say: YES
I've been doing that approximately once a year for a few years now. Actually my wife and I both do so as we have a "mutual account" setup in the 1990's so we can both transfer AA miles into one Hilton account. Unfortunately, if you don't already have one, Hilton no longer allows you to setup a mutual account (a single account for you and your spouse).
And, yes, the transfer is currently 2 Hilton points for each AA mile transfered.
Recently my wife, my daughter, my granddaughter and I enjoyed a 6 free night stay at the Walt Disney World Hilton (using a Gold Vip 175,000 point 6 free nights reward) which was mostly funded by AA miles converted to Hilton points.
Since it now costs $25 per transaction (whether 5000 or ???,0000 miles) to do the miles to points transfer, be sure to build up your points and transfer only when ready to use them.
Good luck!
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Sorry. The question I'd originally posted here has been modified and moved to another thread.
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A few questions:
1) Is it better to cancel once miles post or to wait until a statement is received and paid?
2) The recommended 60 day wait is from application to application, rather than old cancel to new application?
3) Is there any harm in trying more than once every 60 days? Is there a danger they'll reactivate the old account and not give more miles?
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Actually citi usually makes you wait 60 days before applying for another card.....
about 2 months ago I called Citi to apply for a Diamond Preferred Rewards MC (5% in "Points" for gas, groceries, drug stores). After my application was taken they asked me if I also wanted a Citi Professional MC (3% in "points" for restaurants, car rental, office supplies, gas). Each one was without a fee (for at least the first year) and each one had 10,000 bonus points upon first use.
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Yes. Your wife ordered a second card with your name on it, which is not relevant when considering if you should open a new Citibank charge account. You can have multiple charge accounts w/ Citibank anyway. But if you are actually going to "churn" them, keep the one you have had longest and leave it alone, and then add and delete new cards as long as the promotion lasts (which I think is currently the end of 2006 but will probably change multiple times between now and then).
Why bother deleting the new cards, as long as there are no fees to pay? Is it simply a matter of not having too many cards pile up for record-keeping purposes, or can you reach a limit on how many cards are allowed?
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Why bother deleting the new cards, as long as there are no fees to pay? Is it simply a matter of not having too many cards pile up for record-keeping purposes, or can you reach a limit on how many cards are allowed?
I cancel my card and consolidate the credit over to my Chairman Card....plus I do not have to deal with AA CSR who tries to get me to keep the card...
Rather cancel, apply again, cancel...rinse, repeat !!!!
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Why bother deleting the new cards, as long as there are no fees to pay? Is it simply a matter of not having too many cards pile up for record-keeping purposes, or can you reach a limit on how many cards are allowed?Citi limits individuals to 4 cards. Too much open credit will be reason for issuers to decline you, either a lot of credit on a few cards or a little credit on a lot of cards. BofA and US Bank are big proponents of this.
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Citi limits individuals to 4 cards. Too much open credit will be reason for issuers to decline you, either a lot of credit on a few cards or a little credit on a lot of cards. BofA and US Bank are big proponents of this.
I've had 5 personal Citi cards at one time. I just read a poster on FatWallet list 5 personal cards and one business card. There is no limit to # of cards with Citi, only a limit to the amount of credit they will extend.
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Citi limits individuals to 4 cards. Too much open credit will be reason for issuers to decline you, either a lot of credit on a few cards or a little credit on a lot of cards. BofA and US Bank are big proponents of this.
Wrong!! I have 5 personal and 2 business AA citibank cards. I also have a Diners club that is issued by Citibank. I don't think your correct on the 4 limit.
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If you keep all these personal cards/ business cards, dont you run the risk of forgetting to cancel these before 1 yr is up and then get hit with ANNUAL FEE charge? Looks like the ones with Bonus sign-ups all have annual fees after 1 yr.
If you have more than one business account - do you use a different business name or is it ok to use the same name?
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If you keep all these personal cards/ business cards, dont you run the risk of forgetting to cancel these before 1 yr is up and then get hit with ANNUAL FEE charge? Looks like the ones with Bonus sign-ups all have annual fees after 1 yr.
If you do forget, you can always call once the annual fee shows up on a statement and cancel. If you do so within 30 days they will generally refund the fee and close the account for you.
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If you keep all these personal cards/ business cards, dont you run the risk of forgetting to cancel these before 1 yr is up and then get hit with ANNUAL FEE charge? Looks like the ones with Bonus sign-ups all have annual fees after 1 yr.
If you have more than one business account - do you use a different business name or is it ok to use the same name?
That's the key to churning......keeping track of renewal dates.
Citibank has both a business AA Mastercard and a business AA Visa, hence 2 AA business cards under the same business name.
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If you keep all these personal cards/ business cards, dont you run the risk of forgetting to cancel these before 1 yr is up and then get hit with ANNUAL FEE charge? Looks like the ones with Bonus sign-ups all have annual fees after 1 yr.
If you have more than one business account - do you use a different business name or is it ok to use the same name?
Some people run that risk just having one card.
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I just read all the threads on churning - thanks to everyone who has shared their experiences. This is a great way to help me get to 1 million miles in the American AAdvantage programme (currently at 825k), and 150k miles for honeymoon tickets.
Here are my experiences to date:
I already have the AA Platinum MasterCard (July 06; 15k miles), AA AmEx (June 06; 15k miles), and AA Business MasterCard (August 06; none yet, but soon to be 20k).
Today I applied for and was approved for the AA Gold MasterCard (15k miles) and AA Business Visa (20k miles), both after spending $250 on each card.
My Question: In all of your experiences, when is the earliest that I can begin "churning" these Citi cards? I read above about the 60 day limits between applications, and 8 weeks between "churning" - are people here in collective agreement about those timeframes?
Thanks in advance...
AAmerican_in_London
P.S. Although I was born in the US and have a US SSN and mailing address (and verifiable income from my father's company), I have no intention of living there again, and hence, am not worried about US credit rating.
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I just read all the threads on churning - thanks to everyone who has shared their experiences. This is a great way to help me get to 1 million miles in the American AAdvantage programme (currently at 825k), and 150k miles for honeymoon tickets.
Here are my experiences to date:
I already have the AA Platinum MasterCard (July 06; 15k miles), AA AmEx (June 06; 15k miles), and AA Business MasterCard (August 06; none yet, but soon to be 20k).
Today I applied for and was approved for the AA Gold MasterCard (15k miles) and AA Business Visa (20k miles), both after spending $250 on each card.
My Question: In all of your experiences, when is the earliest that I can begin "churning" these Citi cards? I read above about the 60 day limits between applications, and 8 weeks between "churning" - are people here in collective agreement about those timeframes?
Thanks in advance...
AAmerican_in_London
P.S. Although I was born in the US and have a US SSN and mailing address (and verifiable income from my father's company), I have no intention of living there again, and hence, am not worried about US credit rating.
to follow up on this question. Can you only apply for a (any) citi card every 60 days? or can you apply for each citi card every 60 days?
Thanks
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to follow up on this question. Can you only apply for a (any) citi card every 60 days? or can you apply for each citi card every 60 days?
Thanks
The limit is 2 Citi personal cards in 60 days. CitiBusiness cards and Citi Professional cards do not seem to count against this limit, though they may have their own.
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60 days from application to application? From cancelling card 1 to applying for card 2? Something else?
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60 days from application to application? From cancelling card 1 to applying for card 2? Something else?
Basically, it is application to application.
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The limit is 2 Citi personal cards in 60 days. CitiBusiness cards and Citi Professional cards do not seem to count against this limit, though they may have their own.
I have one personal card and the citibank mc. I also applied for the citibank visa business card and was turned down - due to application was too close to other business application. (same day)
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The limit is 2 Citi personal cards in 60 days. CitiBusiness cards and Citi Professional cards do not seem to count against this limit, though they may have their own.
I have only one personal citi card and one business citi mc. I applied for a second citibank business card the same day and was denied due to application was too soon after applying for citibank business mc.
I applied for the personal and business on 8/26. Would it be better to wait 60 days from 8/26 and then apply for both personal and business again?
Am I eligible now to apply for the 2nd personal card? If so, when would I apply for the second business card?
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I applied for my Citi Platinum MC and Citi Amex within 2 weeks of one another and was approved instantly in the case of the MC, and after a week or so for the Amex.
When I applied for the CitiBusiness MC in early September I was instantly approved. I applied for the CitiBusiness Visa and Citi Gold MC within minutes of each other on Friday night and was approved for both immediately.
I plan on churning these once I have spent the requisite $250 and will share my findings then.