Question
In the past two years, I have used premium Visa and MasterCards issued by Bank One, MBNA, Bank of America, US Bank, and American Express. I have a relatively high salary, high credit lines, and may incur a significant monthly balance, always paying it off immediately. I have no debts. There appears nothing untoward in my credit history, as I recently applied for and received new cards from US Bank and Amex.
Yet I'm being given the runaround by Citibank in applying for their Visa HHonors and AAdvantage MasterCard. They wrote back asking for additional material including original home phone bill, other credit card statement, copy of payroll stub, etc. On receiving this material, they still declined to issue the Aadvantage card, while followup material is being requested for the HHonors card. The stated reason for declining the Aadvantage card was that they could not verify my residential address and phone number. Yet I have lived at the same place and with the same phone number for 16 years, my number is listed, and I sent them my electronic phone bill.
Any idea what's going on? Does Citibank require property ownership but doesn't want to say so outright? Would a visit to a local Citibank office help? http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/rolleyes.gif
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High credit lines? Large balances (that you pay off, but that still may show up on your reports)? Recently opened accounts? A bunch of applications within a short period of time? These are all potential red flags for a lender.
In my personal experience, Citibank is fairly conservative. When I applied for the AA card earlier this year, I was also asked to provide proof of my address. Oddly, I had had a Citibank card at the same address for a few years.
But it's not anti-renter bias; I rent and was eventually approved.
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A bank will not freely give you a credit card just because you get paid well. If you have a million credit cards, as it appears you do, the banks are weary about issuing you a card.
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You may want to check your FICO score. Your score with all three major credit bureaus is available at www.myfico.com (http://www.myfico.com) for about $40. FICO is the three digit number (850 tops) that credit card companies live by.
Having high monthly balances that you pay off immediately may be hurting you by lowering your FICO score. The high balances count against you in three ways in FICO - all balances vs. total credit available, individual balances vs. the individual credit lines and total installment debt. Applying for new credit cards also lowers your score.
One good way to raise your score is to pay your credit card charges prior to the close of billing cycle when they were incurred. Then your balances reported to the credit agencies will be much lower. Obviously, prepaying will cost you several days of float but your FICO score will increase substantially over a couple of months. Online bill payment makes prepaying fairly easy.
Just in passing, FICO does not factor in your income or assets, it's based solely on your credit history.
The score certainly has it's quirks but it pays to play it's game.
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Wow, thanks dave99 for the advice. I'll try it out.
I am acquiring quite a few affinity cards so that I can charge expenditures with that merchant to their card, gaining additional points (plus sign-up bonus, of course). Non-affinity expenditures I generally charge to a single card (currently MBNA) and that is where a high balance may appear.
I do have a question about Citibank's request for additional documentation, which they then apparently ignore. Is responding with said documentation simply a waste of time?
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Explore, no offense intended, but you're exactly the kind of consumer the card issuers DON'T want -- you are only looking for high value/very low margin spending opportunities and don't plan to carry a balance. This is smart on your part, but it may also be something that Citi can discern from your credit report. (FICO scores matter, but Citi has its own metrics, too.) If it shows that you almost exclusively use the MBNA card, and that that card has significant credit available, what reason does Citi have to believe that you will become a profitable user of their cards?
Originally posted by Explore:
Is responding with said documentation simply a waste of time?
I sent them a copy of my (non-electronic) electric bill, and that did the trick.
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Originally posted by Explore:
...On receiving this material, they still declined to issue the Aadvantage card...
If you have been declined, you can get a free copy of your credit report according to, I believe, the Fair Credit Reporting Act. You should have instructions on the decline letter on how to obtain it.
Once you get it, check it out for anything suspicious (credit lines, cards, etc. that don't belong to you; credit requests that you know nothing about, etc.) Since the *issue* that is being brought up has to do with your address, you may be dealing with identity theft. (Don't ask me how I know about this, I can't discuss.)
It's been a while, but this credit report may also have your FICO on it.
Good luck getting this all straightened out.
BTW, when was the last time you were approved for any credit?
------------------
Bob
You only live once -- but if you work it right, once is enough.
Joe E. Lewis
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www.privacyguard.com (http://www.privacyguard.com) is $1 for first 3 months. You can cancel at any time. Its OK for a general credit score and a look at your credit rating, but it doesnt provide the true FICO that banks use for giving home loans, but you dont really need that.
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I had to send my pay stub to get Citi HHonors visa but they came through with the card.
To check your score take a free 30 day trial to experian credit expert or equifax credit watch. Privacy Guard can result in hard inquiries.
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Originally posted by Explore:
In the past two years, I have used premium Visa and MasterCards issued by Bank One, MBNA, Bank of America, US Bank, and American Express. I have a relatively high salary, high credit lines, and may incur a significant monthly balance, always paying it off immediately. I have no debts. There appears nothing untoward in my credit history, as I recently applied for and received new cards from US Bank and Amex.
Yet I'm being given the runaround by Citibank in applying for their Visa HHonors and AAdvantage MasterCard. They wrote back asking for additional material including original home phone bill, other credit card statement, copy of payroll stub, etc. On receiving this material, they still declined to issue the Aadvantage card, while followup material is being requested for the HHonors card. The stated reason for declining the Aadvantage card was that they could not verify my residential address and phone number. Yet I have lived at the same place and with the same phone number for 16 years, my number is listed, and I sent them my electronic phone bill.
Any idea what's going on? Does Citibank require property ownership but doesn't want to say so outright? Would a visit to a local Citibank office help? http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/rolleyes.gif
For whatever it's worth: I got an Citibank HHonors Visa card a couple years ago to get the bonus points. Didn't use it after that. Meanwhile, I've had one other now-Citibank card for years (AT&T Universal), plus Citibank-administered Diners, and I still have both of those, despite the fact that I haven't used the AT&T card for a few years I think. Anyway, when I applied for a Citi AAdvantage (the one with 10000 miles and 6-month waiver of annual fee), I got a letter saying I'd been accepted but that to issue it they had to close one of my inactive accounts with them, which turned out to be the HHonors Visa. (Btw, they never asked which one I wanted to get rid of, they just chose it for me! Luckily they chose the one I had least use for.)
Meanwhile, a month later I successfully applied for both a Best Western MC (administered by Jupiter Bank) and a Northwest WorldPerks Visa (admisinstered by US Bank). I'd never had a card with either of these and so they just went by my credit report/score I presume and had no problem issuing them with not a hint of the hesitancy that Citibank had (by implying that they couldn't have issued me the AAdvantage card had they not been able to cancel my HHonors card).
So obviously:
(a) They compare your various credit cards and credit card requests against each other, and don't like you to have too many of them (thus perhaps because you tried to apply for two at the same time from Citi they especially didn't like it, since they figured you wouldn't use both of them a lot and if you didn't use both of them a lot maybe you wouldn't use EITHER of them a lot).
(b) A great credit score and credit history isn't enough when it comes to history of or applications for multiple credit cards with the same credit card company. I would recommend with Citi you apply for one card at a time, and then only apply for the next one when you don't mind if they make you give up a/the previous one to get the new one.
Btw, one thing that hurts your credit score is the number of ATTEMPTS (especially over a short time) to get new cards (whether they're successful or not). So now that you tried for "too many" from Citi at once after getting a couple others recently, don't (re)try too often or it'll get harder each time.
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I've had quite a few Visa/MasterCard products issued by Capital One, First USA/Bank One, Citibank, and MBNA. Citibank approved me for their Diamond Preferred card when I was 18 (without a co-signer), and only required that I send in a copy of my phone bill.
Diners Club approved me when I was 19 (earlier this year); however I am Self-Employed and noted this on the application. They did not however ask me to furnish additional documentation to verify proof of employment or stated income.
The only cards I currently hold are Diners Club, and two American Express cards (one Starwood and the other Business Gold). I was actually approved for Diners Club at a time American Express wouldn't even grant me credit... read on.
I am 20 years old and come from an upper-middle class family and have excellent credit. I received my first credit card when I was 18 and was approved for a standard card, without having been required to have someone co-sign on my account. I always pay my bills on time and in full. I consider my credit to be excellent.
After having established credit for more than two years, I applied for an American Express Rewards Green card and was flat out denied. I contacted American Express and spoke to a supervisor in regards to my application. I told the supervisor that I was taken back when I was informed that my application was denied, as I have good credit. In addition, I stressed that I certainly have the financial resources at hand to take care of my purchases. I told the supervisor that I was merely applying for a Green rewards card, American Express's entry level card, and should have been approved. I am self employed and meet the minimum yearly income (US $20,000) required to qualify for the card, and I actually surpass the minimum requirement by about four times. In addition to that I have the financial backing of my family. It need not be said that my application for credit is based on my personal credit history, but surely American Express could have taken other factors into account.
The supervisor at American Express seemed uninterested in what I had to say and I ended the conversation shortly thereafter as she was unwilling to approve my application or even take it into further consideration.
Shortly thereafter I felt furious that I was denied for a charge card that seemed was quite easy to obtain. I wrote a letter to the Corporate office of American Express in New York. An executive called me immediately upon receipt and stated that my letter had been forwarded to the Vice President.
A few days had passed and then I suddenly received a call from American Express. To my surprise it was from the Assistant to the Vice President, calling from their corporate office. She stated that my Rewards Green Card was approved and I should receive it shortly. I compared the benefits of the Starwood Preferred Guest Credit Card with the American Express Rewards Green card and ultimately decided that the Starwood card is a much superior product. I contacted American Express and they canceled my Rewards Green Card and issued the Starwood card and I couldn't be happier.
American Express gave me a hard time with actually getting approved but once I got the cards - I've had no problems. The customer service is nowhere near Diners Club but much better than the service provided by CitiCards and First USA/Bank One.
After taking a look at your credit reports from Equifax, Experian and TransUnion, and Innovis Data Solutions (yes, there is a fourth bureau), I strongly advise you to write a letter to Citibank detailing the situation. Perhaps it may help you as it did me with American Express.
Best Regards,
around the world
[This message has been edited by around the world (edited Nov 16, 2003).]
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Try www.planetfeedback.com (http://www.planetfeedback.com) This sends email to the executive offices. I have heard that people have good luck with the requests for reconsiderations.
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Originally posted by Stefan Daystrom:
Btw, one thing that hurts your credit score is the number of ATTEMPTS (especially over a short time) to get new cards (whether they're successful or not). So now that you tried for "too many" from Citi at once after getting a couple others recently, don't (re)try too often or it'll get harder each time.
Very true. I believe credit agencies call them "incidents". Every time a credit report is requested (for a loan, CC, etc.), another incident hits your report. A few incidents in a short period of time can dramtically reduce your FICO score.
FWIW, here's what I'd do: check you credit report, and close out all inactive credit cards and lines of credit (you might be amazed at what you have out there, like department store cards you haven't used in years but never closed). Wait six months, pay off all balances on open accounts, then apply for another card - one at a time. Everyone wants to take advantage of bonus miles on intro offers, but if you go after every one, they'll come back to bite you. I found this out the hard way - when I first started lurking on FT, I applied for 4 cards within a couple of months - I got shot down on my last two applications (and my FICO score took a hit).
As for using planetfeedback, this has worked well for me in the past for service or product issues - but I think in you case this is more of a credit issue.
Another thing that Citibank has considered in the past when granting a line of credit is personal assets (Amex doesn't). If you have something you can send them, like brokerage statements, this may help your cause.
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Originally posted by around the world:
After having established credit for more than two years, I applied for an American Express Rewards Green card and was flat out denied.
If you don't mind telling us, can you share with us the reason that Amex gave as to why they denied your application?
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Originally posted by singlemalt:
close out all inactive credit cards and lines of credit (you might be amazed at what you have out there, like department store cards you haven't used in years but never closed).
Actually, I've heard that closing out ALL inactive credit cards may not be a good idea. That's because of two things: One, they like you to have a long credit history (thus it's fine to close relatively recent inactive cards, but you may want to keep some of the oldest ones if you don't have even older ones that are active). Two, one factor in your credit scoring is how much balance you have relative to how much available credit you have. If you have $3000 balance on a card with a $7500 limit, that looks a lot worse if that's the only card you've left open than if you've left open inactive cards totaling another $30000 in limit. In the first case, they'll compare $3000 against $7500 and may say "too much", in the second case, $3000 against $37500 and may say "reasonable".
Havings said that, many of your inactive credit cards, especially store cards, are not likely to contribute much to total limit. But do look at the limit of each one that you're cancelling, and cancel the most-recently opened ones with the lowest limit first.
Meanwhile, if you have multiple balances to pay, here's a not-widely-known way to help your score: Don't pay JUST the minimum balance on ANY card, but it's ok to pay just a dollar or two more than the minimum balance. The credit report only shows a "binary" value of whether you paid the minimum balance or "more", and just one dollar gets flagged as "more". When I made this ONE change a few years ago (at the advice of a CSR at a credit card company where they had just jacked up my nominal rate after looking over my credit report) I went from being denied and having my rates raised to getting offers of low balance transfers (and having those applications accepted)!
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Originally posted by Stefan Daystrom:
Actually, I've heard that closing out ALL inactive credit cards may not be a good idea. That's because of two things: One, they like you to have a long credit history (thus it's fine to close relatively recent inactive cards, but you may want to keep some of the oldest ones if you don't have even older ones that are active). Two, one factor in your credit scoring is how much balance you have relative to how much available credit you have.
I agree about keeping the long credit history and defer to your advice. As for balance vs. available credit, I do recall reading that in another thread. When I called to check on why one of my applications was denied (this was with Amex), they gave me a couple of pieces of information:
1) a number of recent incidents may mean that the applicant is hurting for more credit and they're overextended; and
2) they (Amex) look at the total available credit vs. ability to pay. If a person was to completely tap out a large amount of credit, and they (Amex) were part of that, what would be the chance of recovery? They said there are a lot of people that make a lot of money that end up filing for bankruptcy - it's easier to go BK and start over than to try to pay down a huge amount of debt.
But then, this is from one person at Amex - and who can believe anything you hear from those people?
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Here's a free Equifax report with free FICO score. It should help you figure out what's going on:
http://www.yourcreditcounts.com/cred/yccc_index.jsp
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Thanks for that link, bobo. I used it and got a nice report for my efforts. Best of all, you don't have to sign-up for a "30-day trial" of anything that then requires your time to make phone calls, wait on hold, etc. to cancel.
The report gives you your score plus (at least in my case) your top two positive and top two negative attributes.
My top two positives were no late payments and a good debt-to-available-credit ratio.
My top two negatives were my avg. account age and the raw amount of revolving debt I have.
I brought on both of those negatives intentionally and only after I secured my desired mortgage last year. I have accepted a LOT of 0% teaser money and have it working for me in a couple of reasonably low-risk mutual funds. Eventually I expect the cycle of using new 0% teaser money to pay off the old to slow, but my score has stayed pretty flat for about a year of this strategy. Obviously, if we start thinking about buying another house, I'll clean up and bring my revolving debt way down to near zero. But for now, I'm gonna keep gettin' while the gettin's good.
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Originally posted by Explore:
The stated reason for declining the Aadvantage card was that they could not verify my residential address and phone number. Yet I have lived at the same place and with the same phone number for 16 years ...
This is a bit odd since a credit report (which CitiBank surely got) contains your current and former addresses.
Here is a primer (http://www.myfico.com/myFICO/FAQ/FICOScores.asp#Q28) on what affects your FICO score.
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Originally posted by Family flyer:
Originally posted by Explore:
The stated reason for declining the Aadvantage card was that they could not verify my residential address and phone number. Yet I have lived at the same place and with the same phone number for 16 years ...
I had a similar problem with Citi...I applied and they wanted me to verify my address. The ironic thing about this was that I already had one other Citi card productwith the bill going to the address in question.....
Also, Citi's policy is that you can only have two Citi card products in your name at any one time (Diner's Club excluded).
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I wouldn't bet on Citi's policy of only 2 card accounts per person. My wife and myself each have 4 with Citi. 2 MasterCard accounts each, 1 Hhonors card & 1 AT&T card.
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Originally posted by clanson:
I wouldn't bet on Citi's policy of only 2 card accounts per person. My wife and myself each have 4 with Citi. 2 MasterCard accounts each, 1 Hhonors card & 1 AT&T card.
I have four as well: AA MC, two different non-co-branded 0% teaser cards, and a Montage card.
Oddly enough, I applied for a regular Diner's Club charge card about a year ago, and they said no because had too much revolving debt. At the time, I really wanted the card, so I said "What do I need to do? All of my revolving debt is with you guys and I can pay it all off right now if you'll cut me a Diner's card." They wouldn't tell me what I needed to do and they said I'd have to reapply a month later if I wanted a Diner's Club.
So I gave up. Then a week later, I was getting mailings for Montage with the same bonuses people get with regular Diner's (first year fee waived, 24,000 DC points). Very strange, considering that the Diner's people didn't offer up Montage as a consolation prize when I was on the phone with them.