Question
On Sunday morning I tried to draw cash over the counter using my Master Card at Bank Hapoalim in TLV Ben Gurion. I was refused service on the grounds "we only service Israeli-issued cards: this is bank policy". http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/mad.gif This, despite the fact the counter had an MC symbol displayed very prominently. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/mad.gif http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/mad.gif
I took the matter up with MC yesterday in Britain, and they confirmed, this goes directly against the rules of the organisation.
The refusal caused me intense problems, as I had a taxi driver waiting outside the terminal building for his money. Security wasn't very happy about him being there for that length of time, and in the end I couldn't pay him (all the ATMs in Tel Aviv were down that morning). Fortunately, I use the same driver regularly, and will be able to settle up on my next trip.
I have had problems like this with Visa in the past (there is a separate thread on the Visa experience), but this is the first time with MC. I now feel I cannot rely on either system.
So, until Bank Hapoalim stops this discrimination, I think it should be excluded from the MC system worldwide, and all carriers of their MC cards should be refused service wherever they go. My apologies to those of you who carry Bank Hapoalim cards, but the system should work properly for all. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif
Answer
Originally posted by Dr. Zhivago:
So, until Bank Hapoalim stops this discrimination, I think it should be excluded from the MC system worldwide, and all carriers of their MC cards should be refused service wherever they go.
So, you think that somebody holding a valid MasterCard should be denied the use of their card solely because of the issuing bank? Isn't this exactly the behavior that you think is so wrong?
Answer
Originally posted by Steve M:
So, you think that somebody holding a valid MasterCard should be denied the use of their card solely because of the issuing bank? Isn't this exactly the behavior that you think is so wrong?
Yes, of course it is wrong. Which is why Bank Hapoalim should be brought into line: the system should work properly for all MasterCard customers. MasterCard thinks so too: see reply they sent to me:
When the MasterCard logo is displayed by a business to show the card is welcome, the merchant must accept, without discrimination, any valid MasterCard cards presented for payment. To report a merchant in violation, please visit our website at http://mastercard.com/cgi-bin/contactus.cgi?template=ContactUsMV
Best regards,
MasterCard International
Customer Service Center
The key words here are "without discrimination"
[This message has been edited by Dr. Zhivago (edited 09-05-2002).]
Answer
Did you report them to Mastercard like the link suggests. I have had this happen in Mexico (Banamex) and reported it to MC and have not had the problem since.
Being a merchant, I know that when a complaint is lodged for non-acceptance, a Higher Processing Fee is instituted and the Merchant (or Bank) really has to explain why they denied it to get back down to a lower fee.
Answer
Originally posted by mapsmith:
Being a merchant, I know that when a complaint is lodged for non-acceptance, a Higher Processing Fee is instituted and the Merchant (or Bank) really has to explain why they denied it to get back down to a lower fee.
Thanks for sharing this info mapsmith. BTW, is the info you posted specific to MC, or is it a credit card industry-related reality? Thanks again.
[This message has been edited by ILTE_Miles (edited 09-12-2002).]
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Originally posted by mapsmith:
Did you report them to Mastercard like the link suggests. I have had this happen in Mexico (Banamex) and reported it to MC and have not had the problem since.
Being a merchant, I know that when a complaint is lodged for non-acceptance, a Higher Processing Fee is instituted and the Merchant (or Bank) really has to explain why they denied it to get back down to a lower fee.
Yes, I did report them, and I also had my bank write a letter. Haven't been back to TLV yet, but will definitely check it out to see if anything has changed!
This is a problem I have now encountered with both Visa and MC. Seems to make the entire system pointless, if you can't rely on them when you really need them.
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Let me get this straight, if you have a MC from Citibank and you try to withdraw cash in Israle...they will outright refuse you just because you are carrying a non-Israeli issued bank? IS this all over Israle or just that particular bank? This is a huge problem if it is country wide!
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This is not new at all. Try using an ATM in Japan... Japanese only VISA/MC in many MANY cases. I believe only the postal ATMs are connected to the international network... otherwise it's home-market only. To their credit, the sign DOES say Japan only but Bank Hapoelim is not unique.
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Bank Hapoalim may not be unique, but MasterCard and Visa should get their act together. My bank, on the basis of its agreement with MasterCard and Visa, informs me I can draw cash worldwide, wherever the relevant logo is displayed. But that is not the case. Apart from Bank Hapoalim, I have been refused service by Sberbank in Russia (Visa) on similar, but even more restrictive grounds: we only service cards issued by ourselves!!! I pay an annual fee to my bank for both cards, but I am obviously not getting the service promised.
The inconvenience caused to me in Israel was extreme. All the ATMs in Tel Aviv were out of action, which was why I was trying to draw cash over the counter in the first place, I had a taxi driver waiting outside the Ben Gurion airport terminal to get paid, and the airport security personnel were getting very jittery because he was parked in the drop-off zone for so long. Not to mention me being accosted by a guard as I tried to enter the terminal without luggage!
Answer
Originally posted by kanebear:
This is not new at all. Try using an ATM in Japan... Japanese only VISA/MC in many MANY cases. I believe only the postal ATMs are connected to the international network... otherwise it's home-market only.
over two years ago the citibank atms and I think other atms in Tokyo accepted my chase ATM card just fine many many times.
It depends on the ATM network: cirrus etc.
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Well, I was back at Bank Hapoalim in Tel Aviv on Friday morning, and NOTHING HAS CHANGED.
Despite MasterCard's assurances, I was again refused service on the grounds that they service "only cards issued in Israel".
Many people have now told me they have encountered the same situation, especially in Japan.
This is a complete farce. MasterCard should either make these detractors fall into line, remove them from the scheme, or change their worldwide advertising. The card is clearly NOT accepted "worldwide, wherever you see the MasterCard logo".
The same goes for VISA, who have similar problems.
Answer
Originally posted by mre2b9:
over two years ago the citibank atms and I think other atms in Tokyo accepted my chase ATM card just fine many many times.
You've just quoted the exception to the rule in Japan. Japanese ATMs do not accept overseas issued cards, except for ATMs run by US banks, such as Citibank. In Tokyo, that might be okay. In some other parts of Japan, that means the only ATMs that work correctly are on US military bases!
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Spoke to MasterCard again. They promise they will get it right this time.
Let's see.....
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Still harping on....
Back at Bank Hapoalim this week. Still no change. Another letter fired off to MasterCard - does anyone else think I am wasting my time?
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Does Israel have any decent customer protection laws? If so, another possibility would be to report the bank for misrepresentation, since they should be forced to remove the incorrect signage.
Alternatively, maybe the UK and US Mastercard issuers could be forced to reprint all materials that claim that cards can be used wherever you see the logo?
It may be a disproportionate amount of effort for you, but the more people chase this, the more likely it is that something will be done.
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Originally posted by Kremmen:
It may be a disproportionate amount of effort for you, but the more people chase this, the more likely it is that something will be done.
I agree. I was severly inconvenienced by this inconsistency, and so far MasterCard doesn't seem to have done anything. So, each time I am refused service, I shall make a point of reporting it. It would help if everyone else did, as well! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif
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Originally posted by Dr. Zhivago:
I was refused service on the grounds "we only service Israeli-issued cards: this is bank policy".
I honestly don't understand why people want to go into a bank and queue up for 20 minutes to withdraw money when you can use an ATM. ???
OK, so you say that "all" the ATMs in Tel Aviv were down at the time. Israel is a pretty technologically advanced country - surely it would be a rare event that ALL the ATMs were out of order.
As for the bank not wanting to advance money on a M/C, I guess that's their choice. Lots of banks won't change cash into other currencies unless you are a customer either (eg: Citibank).
The thing I really don't get is why you persist in going back to the bank to get money over the counter.
Just use the ATM machine and forget the hassle of going into the bank. That's what the banks want you to do and that's why they try and discourage you from going to the teller.
Indeed, some UK banks are starting to charge their own customers for teller transactions (eg Abbey National).
Take Care!
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Originally posted by Ex Amex Card:
I honestly don't understand why people want to go into a bank and queue up for 20 minutes to withdraw money when you can use an ATM. ???
OK, so you say that "all" the ATMs in Tel Aviv were down at the time. Israel is a pretty technologically advanced country - surely it would be a rare event that ALL the ATMs were out of order.
This is the whole point!! I draw cash overseas on an almost daily basis, ALWAYS from ATM's.
On this occasion, I had visited many ATM's on my way to the airport - every single one was down - seemed like there was a telecoms problem, or some kind of software update in progress. Believe me, EVERY machine I tried, from the centre of Tel Aviv, right up to the one next to the bank counter, was u/s. And I had no money to pay the cab driver. What else could I do, except draw cash over the counter.
The reason for trying again, is that I want to see if MasterCard has done anything about it. I want to know if I can rely on the promise they make, that I can get service wherever I see their logo. Otherwise, what am I supposed to do if I find myself stuck again?
Bottom line, if they make a promise, they should stick to it. I do, after all, pay a hefty fee for this card.