Question
Quotes from labels:
Ginseng (or Bee Pollen) for "energy"?
St. John's Wort for "emotional balance"?
Gingko Biloba for "sustained memory"?
etc. etc. etc.
Questions for everyone: What has been your experience with these types of products?
Does anyone know of a single, good, comprehensive source for information on these types of things? A reference guide that says what they are, what a suggested doseage might be, how to use them effectively and possible side effects, interactions, counter-indications? All I ever get with the search engines is a bunch of online health food / nutritional merchants.
Concerns: I keep hearing people talk about the herbal or natural remedies as if they are all completely safe, totally no risk / no worry things.
I know the manufacturers are not allowed to make too many claims and most say little to nothing about doses, side-effects, etc. on their labels. However, I also know that some of these things DO require some caution.
I have a 'sleep aide', for example, called simply "Sleep E-Z". Outside of the usual caution to "If under doctors care, please consult before use", "keep out of the reach of children", etc. and a list of ingredients, their is no guidance for its use. I see that Valarian Root is the primary ingredient and each tablet has 300 mg of it and a "serving size" is one tablet.
Now, taking one tablet, I find the stuff works nicely...Gently drift off to sleep and wake up refreshed and not feeling "drugged" at all. Cool. Great.
But.....if I remember correctly, the prescription drug Valium is the synthetic version of the Valarian plant. Even as a tea, Valarian Root requires some cautions in its use. Likewise, Tansy, another plant, is often recommended for women with cramps. But....if a woman who did not know she was pregnant started cramping and hit the Tansy, it can facilitate a miscarriage. Camamile (sp,sic) another popular tea for relaxing...not good for people with serious hayfever allergies.
Etc. etc. etc.
So, I know enough to know that just because something is all natural doesn't mean its always safe or safe for everyone. This comes from a time, long ago, when I was "into" the herbal teas and had found a decent book for guidence. Long since lost the book. Alot of these new products in tablet form are not familiar to me.
Some that I have cautiously tried do seem to work. That they are in tablet form and the active ingredient is known and measurable, is an advantage over teas where there can be wide variance in the amount of the active ingredient you get from one cup of tea to the next.
I'd like to find a book similar to the one I used to have for teas (or a website) for this information that addresses dosages in light of these more measurable tablets and gives the full story, not just a list of what to use for what problems.
Out of curiosity, I'd also like to hear other people's experience with these products.
Thanks.
BTW, a similar reference work for nutritional supplements (Shark cartilage, glucosomine sulfate, chrondroitin, etc.)would be nice, too. Without going into detail, the glucosomine sulfate w/ Chrondroitin changed my life as an arthritis sufferer, but I have yet to find a reference source that really explains all the different forms of the stuff.
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Betterhave
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[This message has been edited by RunningSoLate (edited January 13, 2000).]
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I really did not pay much attention to herbal remedies until 1992. My grandfather was a country doctor in the Switzerland, and he would always say, "For every illness, there is a cure in nature." As you know the Swiss are big on herbs for illnesses of every kind. My mother knew them all--and used them on us. For instance, cold sores--there was no over the counter medicine for these when I was growing up--instead she used tincture of myrrh, which she went to our local pharmacy and had the pharmacist make up. We never went to a doctor--she always cured us using natural stuff--some she grew in her garden.
I am sorry to say, I never payed attention. Then I went into mainstream medicine as a nurse in critical care. This rocked along until I became a victim of managed health care. I was seriously sick at the end of 1992 and may blood count dropped from 14 to 8 in just a matter of days, and that's when I started on my journey learning as much as I could about herbs--when mainstream medicine could not help my problem,(long story--too boring)and I turned to herbal remedies. So it was really managed health care that drove me into the herbal arena from their lack of ablility to address my physical problem. (I still have all the lab work and tests to prove this.)
But I still always give mainstream medicine the first shot and I tell you why. One thing Western medicine can do real well--they have the capacity through all kinds of sophisticated testing to generally always give you a good diagnosis. That is 99.9% of the battle--making the correct diagnosis. Otherwise you are just shooting in the dark. And that is if you can get your managed health care provider to order those tests. If you just treat symptoms--you may miss something underlying that is causing those symptoms. And that is one of the biggest gripes I have with herb shops. You go into one of these shops with a shopping list full of symptoms and come out with a shopping bag full of herbs--when in fact, something more serious is underlying those symptoms. For example, depression. If depression is the primary diagnosis, maybe St.John's Wort is ok. But what if this depression has a metabolic component and there is a physiological reason for the depression--maybe even hormonal? The metabolic component has to be treated for the depression to be gone. So you see, how that works?
So I would say rule number one. Go to a doctor, get a diagnosis. Then listen to the plan of treatment. Read, inform yourself--Web MD is a good source of info. Know everything about your diagnosis and treatment plans. Knowledge is empowerment. Ask the doctor what the risks are before you undertake a plan of treatment.
If you want to use herbs--a good book, written by an M.D. is Prescription for Nutritional Healing by James F. Balch, M.D. and his wife who is a board certfied nutritional consultant. Phyllis A. Balch, C.N.C. He is a board certified urologist who got interested in herbal, nutritional, vitamin and mineral food supplements after he had a few stubborn "cases" who could not get better. His wife would prescribe a balanced remedy using vitamins, minerals, herbs and food supplements and then these individuals would begin to get better. Eventually he wrote a book with his wife--and this is already in its second edition. He takes on every illness known to man. His format is to describe the problem, such as say high blood pressure. He describes what it is, underlying causes, and mainstream treatment plans and the reasoning behind the treatment. Then he lists nutrients that are very important, important and helpful. This is followed by herbs, Recommendations, and Considerations--which is more helpful hints to help with the particular problem you are dealing with and explains more in detail about your particular illness that you are looking up and what works and doesn't work. It is an immensely popular book and really a must for your library when you are learning to use herbs,etc. You can get it in any bookstore.
The best book, I feel on the use of glucosamine and chrondroitin is also written by a doctor, who is board-certified in physiology and sports medicine. He is an Assistant Clinical Professor and the University of Arizona College of Medicine in Arizona. His name is Jason Theolosakis, M.D.M.S.M.P.H. and his book is The Arthritis Cure. Glucosamine and chrondoritin dosage should based on weight of the person taking it in order for it to be effective. In this book he diagrams and explains how these two herbs work. He also goes on to show how they are just one thing in the overall plan to keep your bones healthy. So he includes the vitamins, minerals and foods you should or should not be eating to keep those bones healthy. I think he has a follow-up book out called Maximizing the Arthritis Cure.
Another incredible book, also written by a doctor--is Eat Right 4 Your Type by Dr. Peter J.D'Adamo. His book is well-researched, including research work of his own. In it, he describes how your body and why your body looks at each substance that it takes in, whether herb, vitamin, mineral, food, drug and how your body--actually your blood type "sees" that substance and what it does with it. The reason why I recommend this book, is that here is the second point: An herb that works for you may not work for me. Why? and I think he does an excellent job of explaining that. Why do certain substances cause certain reactions in some people and not others. He also takes on mainstream medical treatments and shows how some will work in certain people and not in others. This book is immensely popular--and this doctor has a huge website. He practices in Connecticut. By the way, he had the best answer to sinus problems ever. He recommends the herb collinsonia (stone root), which is just totally awesome. I take it in liquid form: it is non-toxic and is better than Claritin, without the side effects.
Another book I found extemely informative and of sound medical knowledge and the best book I have ever read on women's health is What Your Doctor May Not Tell You About Menopause; The Breakthrough Book on Natural Progesterone by Dr. John R. Lee, M.D. This is a must-read book for any woman of any age from 20's on. So it is not just a book about menopause--but your total well-being as a woman and what in our way of life in our Western society is going to profoundly affect your health in the long- term. Wish I had had that book years ago. It too, is so immensely popular it is hard to find--I had to special order my copy--the bookstore said they can't keep enough copies in. In it, you get a physiological basis based on sound research and he lists all his sources--and then a general recommendation for a balanced diet, minerals, vitamins and herbs--and he goes into detail. He cites studies--some of which he conducted over a 20-30 year period.
I can think of alot more books--but these are the backbone so far, that keeps me from doing stupid with herbs--and you know they can interact with any medicines you take. The PDR--Physicians Desk Reference that is found on the floor of every hospital--and doctor's use religiously--has come out with a PDR for medicines/herbs and describes each herb and lists at the end of each description and what it is used for--what it can interact with. It is available in any bookstore too. Always tell your doctor if you are taking herbs, vitamins or minerals. And especially if you go to the hospital. I will try to dig out my paper on drug/ herb/food interactions that our hospital pharmacy sent us several months back and post it here later. It is fascinating.
This is certainly not a complete listing. I think newyorktwo is into herbs too and I'll bet he can give us some good pointers on sources. Sibyl
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I'm going to let RSL handle this topic as it is not one of my strong points. If I remember correctly, NY2 was very well educated in alternative medicine, too.
About all I know is that Peppermint tea is good for the tummy, and to help clear up sinus and nasal congestion.
I do use Siberian Ginseng and find that a dose in the morning keeps me going all day without running out of steam at the end of the workday.
I have also begun taking Vit. C supplements as NY2 suggested it would help after my knee surgery. It sure did! My orthopedic surgeon just released me from his care just 90 days after a total knee reconstruction! He said he has never seen such a rapid, non-complicated recovery.
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Keeping you safe, healthy, and on the road.
Nurse Red
Visit us at www.Truck.net/abmsVisit us at
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Here is a website you might find interesting. Dr.Weil who was a Harvard trained physician is the foremost guru on herbal/alternative medicines. I believe he has classes at the University of Arizona too. Anyway here is his website and it has tons of info on herbs, etc. http://www.pathfinder.com/drweil I get his bulletin e-mailed to me once a week and it is just packed with information you can use practically. Sibyl
[This message has been edited by RunningSoLate (edited January 13, 2000).]
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Sybil, Thank you ! Thank you ! I knew there had to be good references out there and when it comes to buying books, I appreciate knowing which ones are good as none are cheap.
I will share my experience with the glucosomine sulfate with chrodroitin.
For over 12 years I have had the same HMO and had a pretty good 'in-house' primary care physician I thought. However, I spent most of the last five years going from one anti-inflamatory to another and each one working a short time and then not at all, as the pain got more disabling, and not once did anyone mention glucosomine/chrondroitin.
Mind you, I have had rather close contact during much of that time with an orthopedic surgeon (an 'outside vendor' to the HMO) as well. A broken femur below the L. hip in '94 lead eventually to a septic artifical hip later that year. The loss of that hip, (which had only been installed in 93 when it replaced an earlier hip that had worn out), the three years following with no hip and the eventual replacement of the lost hip amounted to a long period of inactivity around a total of five surgeries in five years.
When my back got to the point that the very excercises (swimming and walking in a warm water pool) that used to help were causing more pain, and the wrist pain was also beginning to effect my ability to use the crutches, I was getting scared.
The hip was stable and had come as far as it was going to, but the rest of me was falling apart. A full year and a half after the replacement hip was done, I was still on crutches.
Some of that was muscle weakness on the left side, permanent to some extent. But slow to heal in any case, due to a total of ten surgeries including two partials and three total hips over the last 25 years, but the major reason was the arthritis pain in all the other joints.
The gp had been treating the arthritis, but when the orthopedic doc was trying to track down some numbness going on in that left leg and the sharp increase in the back pain was thought to maybe be related, the mri he ordered revealed further degeneration in the lower back from the arthritis. The numbness in the leg meanwhile, just simply went away and that was sort of the end of his interest in my back.
In October of '98, a guy I had not seen in quite a while surfaced and seeing the shape I was in, mentioned that his wife's orthopedic doctor had recommended the glucosomine with chrondroitin and that she had seen amazing results.
He said she had been told to start with 3,000 mg a day for six weeks and then drop down to 1,500 mg from there on. They told her she would probably start to see some benefit after four to six weeks and full benefits between six to eight weeks. He said she did start feeling some relief at four weeks and was doing really well after six weeks.
Discussing it with my orthopedic doctor's nurse, she said, "oh, yeah, we're beginning to see more about that in the literature and it does seem to help some people." GRRRRRRR.
I started taking it and I found my experience to be pretty much the same as my friend's wife while following her dosages. I was able to discontinue the anti-inflamatories completely after about six weeks on the glucosomine and have had no need of anything more potent than an occasional motrin or asprin when changing weather or some overly strenuous project creates temporary pain. I did up my maintenance dose to 2,000 mg last year, 1,000 am and again pm, which works best for me.
I did try a glucosamine sulfate complex without the chrondrointin for about three months as the tablets were in 1 gram doses and considerably cheaper than the 500 mg tablets of glucosamine with chrondrointin I had been using. The benefits were noticably lessened, however and I went back to the original plan.
Brands like Pain Free are the more expensive products. Walmarts and SAMS Club have some of the best prices unless the health food store has a special. Read closely to see what constitutes a "serving" to figure the best price. Most read two servings a day, which is a total of six of the 500 mg tablets during the start up phase. Powdered versions are now available for those who might have trouble with the large tablet forms. And overall, prices are coming down a little.
Needless to say, I was more than a little annoyed with the medical people in my life when I found how well it worked. Especially since a steady diet of anti-inflamatories can wreak so much havoc on the digestive system. Suddenly, now, I see the HMO is selling it in their own pharmacy. Better late than never.
Nurse Red, I have found the ginseng to be helpful too. I tried it after talking to a friend who had mistaken Ginseng for the Ginko Baloba.
My friend is one of those hyper people who never lacked for energy. When she started going through the change and her memory was getting bad, a nutritionist had suggested the Ginko.
Of course, memory being the problem, when she got to the health food store, all she could remember is it was 'one of those G things' and ended up buying the Ginseng.
Since she had abundant energy to start with, the results were pretty quick to show up and when her sister questioned her as to what the heck she was doing up ironing and making phone calls at 1am, she called the nutrtionist and learned of her mistake.
Changing to the Ginko she did see improvement in her memory, although when the hormone levels shifted again, the ginko was no longer necessary either. I thought it interesting that although the hormones obviously were playing a part in her memory problems, the Ginko still helped.
Hormones. Now there's a whole other thread. I am very happy to see the book mentioned above on Menopause. I have a lot of questions in that area.
Thanks again for taking the time to share your library with us, Sybil. Now, I am off to read and bookmark that website.
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Betterhave
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Betterhave, that was quite a story. I think you and anyone else that has joint problems will especially appreciate that book The Arthritis Cure But with women, it is more because the hormones play a big role in healthy bones. I addressed this in my post on Hypglycemia re:Mary. If you can take the time to plow through that post--you will see that as a woman under alot of constant stress it will take a large toll on your bones too. It will show you that when you are under constant stress, your bones will have a very hard time regenerating themselves. And that book on women's health I mentioned also shows how your hormones mineralize your bones. So it is not just one thing but several. Of course, I am a big proponent of Vitamin C, like Nurse Red used to help herself. Take care and happy reading. Sibyl